S/O Why doesn't it bother me that it's a man's world?

tichellady

Fri, Jun 30 2017, 1:55 pm

I try not to be in " a man's world." I work in a company where there is no gender inequity and I belong to Jewish community where women are involved and valued. If I worked somewhere where I felt devalued because I am a woman, or felt that I was treated as second class in shul, then I would be bothered.

amother

Tangerine

Fri, Jun 30 2017, 2:05 pm

Sometimes I feel like men treat women with more respect than women treat women

mommy3b2c

Fri, Jun 30 2017, 3:43 pm

marina wrote:

Feminism cares most that you have options, it cares much less which one you choose.

That's what feminism is Supposed to care about. But it's not the actual reality. And besides, not everything in life is a choice. Men don't have the choice of getting pregnant and (orthodox women) don't have the choice of being a rabbi. Everything isn't always exactly the same for everybody. That doesn't mean one is inherently better then the other.

Maya

Fri, Jun 30 2017, 3:49 pm

mommy3b2c wrote:

Good for her!

But it's not always like that in the frum world. My husband pays his employees based on skill, not on gender.

The fact that your husband pays based on skill and not gender does not negate the fact that pay inequality is a real phenomenon that's especially rampant in the frum world. It goes even further and differentiates between married and single women.

mommy3b2c

Fri, Jun 30 2017, 3:50 pm

Maya wrote:

It exists. But equal pay also exists. Even in the drum world.

Maya

Fri, Jun 30 2017, 3:51 pm

mommy3b2c wrote:

It exists. But equal pay also exists. Even in the drum world.

No. Equal pay exists. Inequality is the norm.

mommy3b2c

Fri, Jun 30 2017, 3:53 pm

Maya wrote:

No. Equal pay exists. Inequality is the norm.

If you read my post again, you'll see that I said:

"it's not always like that in the drum world"

I didn't say:

"Most people in the drum world give equal pay."

amother

Jade

Fri, Jun 30 2017, 3:55 pm

mommy3b2c wrote:

If you read my post again, you'll see that I said:

"it's not always like that in the drum world"

I didn't say:

"Most people in the drum world give equal pay."

Lol! Your autocorrect

Ruchel

Sat, Jul 01 2017, 5:42 pm

In theory, feminists would support every choice.
Yet you should see the way many of them turn their nose up when they hear of yet another "intelligent" girl decided to be a sahm, with several kids. Like, ew. I've had one say that to my face and I defended myself. A woman must have a career. BUT she can't support a kollel husband either. It must be just like they want it. Some support!
My mother had only me (not out of a choice!) and she still got those comments because she was a PhD.

amother

Cobalt

Sat, Jul 01 2017, 9:34 pm

Maybe I missed it. I thought the point in that other thread wasn't that it's a man's world and wouldn't we rather all be men. I don't think anyone here would rather be a man. The issue was that the Torah seems to values a mans life more than a woman. Maybe that bothers you and maybe it doesn't. For the most part I see woman here trying to stretch things and interpret things in the torah in a way other than face value in order to avoid having to concede that the torah seems to place more value on men.

Ruchel

Sun, Jul 02 2017, 5:53 am

It would also bother me, but I don't feel so. And I don't like apologetics most of the time. But I simply don't see it, and don't feel it. Yes, some guys (and even some women) are bad, but personally in my life I don't see so, neither from the Torah nor from most normal people.

PinkFridge

Sun, Jul 02 2017, 8:19 am

amother wrote:

that is tough and unfair. I feel bad she had a bad experience. this has not been my experience BH and what my male co worker gets on his paycheck is of little interest to me.

what would interest me is having a metabolism like a man. they can eat like a horse and stay slim while I.... LOL

Some men.
Fun to find this thread. I was going to ruminate on the other one on how this isn't my struggle and I wonder why not. I have some theories but want to finish reading this thread first.

FranticFrummie

Sun, Jul 02 2017, 8:23 am

It doesn't bother me, because the best way to be satisfied is to keep your eyes on your own plate.

I have a full life, and can do everything that I want to do. What others do does not affect me at all.

PinkFridge

Sun, Jul 02 2017, 8:27 am

amother wrote:

Thank you for bringing this up. Because I can go on about how I don't see patriarchy, my friends and their husbands are partners (like my husband and myself) and we're all just so busy treading that this isn't part of our lives, and that I'm fulfilled with the spiritual options I have and I am the kohen gadol of my family etc. etc. etc.

All without touching on this point.

I don't have an answer though I've heard Miriam Kosman's book addresses this. (I'll read it one day.) I guess that since this doesn't impact me on a day to day basis - I haven't faced drowning, no one's had to pay any erchin for an injury, b"H - I don't deal with this.

I cannot give this the attention it deserves but am very interested and curious and intrigued to see how this thread develops.

amother

Blush

Sun, Jul 02 2017, 8:56 am

Honestly I think this depends on your community. In some communities women still have very little choice. Maybe become a teacher or secretary till you have kids, or once your kids are in school. If you don't like teaching or secretarial work you feel useless... Some very determined women might be able to get more education and do something more but they need very supportive husbands or family for that.

amother

Mint

Sun, Jul 02 2017, 8:56 am

I'm op of this thread. Firstly thank you to those who explained what maybe should be obvious that we're all different and sometimes hard to remember how some people feel and view things completely differently. And this is just not my struggle. I actually did not read through the entire original thread but this thought went through my head so I created the spinoff. I also don't know what to say re things said in the Torah. There are a lot of things I don't understand in the Torah that I also agree cause people to twist things to try to make it sound like something else that's more agreeable when no, I think that's actually what the Torah meant (amalek anyone?). So it would be interesting to hear others' thoughts. I suppose my point in the op was that I can appreciate chivalry but of course mysogyny is never ok. And some seem to think that goes hand in hand.

amother

Periwinkle

Sun, Jul 02 2017, 9:36 am

amother wrote:

Do you think its a man's world in general - or a man's world with regard to Judaism.

General society (in my experience) is mostly egalitarian. I have the same rights and privileges, opportunities as my brothers.

amother

Pewter

Sun, Jul 02 2017, 10:00 am

I accept that Hashem made me a woman and I am totally ok with that. I am ok with halachos that are seemingly degrading. Why? Because I don't think they are. I think they are in place for a reason and I trust in the Almighty and in His appreciation for me.

That's my short answer. For my megillah, keep reading.

Why are we so obsessed with what is fair and being treated fairly? What tools do we have to determine what is fair? Why does fair equal truth? I don’t believe it does. In fact, fairness is the exact opposite of truth. The reality of life is that we are not all equal. We live in an age of a warped sense of equality. We are insistent that people are all capable of the same, and must appropriately be afforded the same opportunities. There are no limitations to what anyone could, or should be able to do. There is just one gaping problem with this mindset. We are not all the same, nor can we possibly be. It is this very fact that makes each one of us special. Our uniqueness is the reason G-d chose us to be in the world. If not, anyone could take our place. There would not be different genders, species, races, etc. Instead of striving for equality, and insisting we can be and do anything, more emphasis should be placed on what strengths and even weaknesses we have inherently, and what our roles truly are. Only by understanding who we are, and our true natures, can we begin to appreciate why Hashem put us here.

I believe the fight for equality is twofold. The first is that people do not like limitations or being told what to or not to do. To be told one can’t, is both a direct challenge, and a further push to desire something one can’t have. The second impetus for this argument is the fact that people feel the need to put others down. If people were more appreciative of those different from themselves, there wouldn’t be a need to prove one’s worth and lack of limitations. People would be more motivated to find their specific role in their greater group, than to try and break completely out of their category, whatever it may be.
Both of these attitudes can be extremely damaging to one’s acceptance of Torah.
As Torah Jews, it is crucial for us to accept whatever guidelines or requirements Hashem has set out for us without viewing them as limitations or denials. We also need to believe in the basic derech eretz that requires us to appreciate that G-d Himself designed us and put us here, and therefore, regardless of what others think and believe, we are both worthwhile and worthy of respect, as is anyone else who is created and placed on earth by Hashem. It is in this way that we are all equal, because it is our lowest common denominator.

Truth begins with Hashem, and the belief and understanding that G-d in His infinite wisdom created the world and He alone defines the truth. We cannot argue that any aspect of the Torah is not moral or ethical. To entertain that idea, is to discredit all of the Torah. Because the Torah comes from Hashem, our morals and ethics are defined by the Torah, to do otherwise is completely backwards. It is not a problem to not understand the morals of Hashem, or to even try and understand them, it is however a major problem to discount the Torah for not fitting into our morals. To believe in Hashem and His Torah is to define our morals, by those that the Torah delineates for us.
The Torah teaches us that every single detail matters. That is to say, every detail has an effect. Many of these details we have no control over, and yet, they make their difference. By understanding how everything is subject to consequences based on the effects of the details, we can understand how truth works. For something to be real, it needs to be consequential. If it truly makes no difference, it cannot exist. Hashem created everything in such a chuchma, everything is in the exact place it should be to both be and have the effects that it is capable of. By breaking Masseh Bareshis into parts, it is clear that Hashem defined His creations by their placements in creation. Inherent in their creation, lays their place in the world, their job, their kochos, their limitations. This is true of every creation. The day something was created, the manner in which it was created, all reflect what Hashem set out to imbue each creation with, and most importantly in the creation of man and woman.
Regardless of what we hold about which body part Chava came from, all would agree that Hashem created Adam first. The fact that Chava was created out of a part of Adam, also has its implications. Most notably perhaps, is the fact that each Adam and Chava are part of a whole. Each part has a unique role, but also, they cannot achieve that role by themselves: they are completely interdependent. A prime example of this, is that one cannot have kids alone. A man is the potential- the seed, and the woman is the one who actualizes it and fosters the growth.
Look around, the idea of male and female are all over. A plug is called the male, whereas the outlet is the female. The idea being that the male contains all of the power, but until it is plugged in to the female, it is merely unused potential, thereby actually leaving the power in the woman’s hands. I think this is the Torah’s view of women. A woman by nature can make the magic happen. A man has a natural potential. This amounts to very little without a woman. A woman’s unique contribution in a healthy relationship is releasing that natural potential, creating a platform for expression, for example the home. It is almost completely in the woman’s hands, and she can either utilize that, or squander it. A wife is the Bayis. Everything gets expressed through her, her feelings, and her values. This is a tremendous koach. There are countless examples throughout Tanach that both show how a woman can cause damage with her abilities, or be the facilitator of much goodness. It can go either way, but the middos involved are the same. The Torah even teaches us that woman can even take over for a man (meaning jobs inherently made for men), when there is no man to do the job- Devora Hashofetes. These same middos that define women are the ones that affect why halachos regarding women are what they are. Obviously, there is a reason some things are available to men and not women and vis versa. We need to trust in Hashem, and His truth, that these halachos reflect this fact and are not to express a woman’s subordinate place in the world. Derech Eretz Kadma L’ Torah.

But sure, all of the people who impose their own sense of a woman's subordination, hate on them. They deserve it.

marina

Sun, Jul 02 2017, 10:33 am

daagahminayin wrote:

https://youtu.be/704rCb2mWUM

The person arguing with Mayon Bialik agrees with you. And it made me realise that feminism is a value (women should have choice) that needs to interact with other moral values - it can't be overriding.

I stopped watching this clip when I remembered this one:

marina

Sun, Jul 02 2017, 10:36 am

mommy3b2c wrote:

Feminism is a whole movement- hundreds of millions of people. They are not all going to act in accordance with the movement's primary goals.

Kind of like....Judaism. How easy is it for people to say: Well, Judaism is SUPPOSED to care about God and the mitzvos, but it's not the actual reality- instead Judaism apparently is about cheating the government and protecting molesters.

And then what are you going to reply? Well, yeah, I guess because there are quite a few dishonest frum people I guess Judaism is now all about dishonesty?