Does Hatzalah train to save men before women?

ally

Thu, Jul 06 2017, 6:04 pm

amother wrote:

That's weird. I would imagine such a Rav would tell her she can treat male patients at all. Confused

I also don't believe this story. In my middle of the right wing road seminary we were told volunteering for mada was assur bc of yichud.

Simple1

Thu, Jul 06 2017, 6:06 pm

amother wrote:

and mine was that hatzala doesn't make the decision on who to pull - which was OP's premise.

Well I hope (and believe) they won't waste precious moments calling a Rav.

Yael

Thu, Jul 06 2017, 6:11 pm

amother wrote:

There's an amother who is a first responder, and she was told by her Rav she's obligated to treat men before she treats women.

There was a thread about it a few years ago.

If anyone has the time and inclination to search for this post, I would be happy to check who posted it.

amother

Gold

Thu, Jul 06 2017, 6:33 pm

Simple1 wrote:

Well I hope (and believe) they won't waste precious moments calling a Rav.

of course not.. the question is that before hatozlah men (I think they are all men) start working.. do they have shmooze with a Rav who says "gentlemen.. if you need to save people who are drowning, or in a burning building... this is the order in which to do so"

I doubt the conversation would even happen... on the premise that this is not the kind of work that hatzolah does.

Chloe

Thu, Jul 06 2017, 7:53 pm

I asked a family member who is a Hatzoloh member. He's like "what type of question is that" and "where did that come from" Confused

.
It's never been a topic of conversation. You save whomever you can first.

marina

Thu, Jul 06 2017, 8:00 pm

Yael wrote:

If anyone has the time and inclination to search for this post, I would be happy to check who posted it.

Here's the post

http://www.imamother.com/forum.....rt=60

I think her name used to be Rivka Batya but then she changed it:

ButterflyGarden wrote:

You are misunderstanding this concept (which is VERY easy to do). It's not the "value" but the potential. I am a medic here in Israel. A few years ago I often found myself in a time sensitive situation where there where more people needing help then I had the ability to help. (read: this was a very real issue for me). I spoke with a gadol who told me the follow (this is a shortened, simplified version):
(Assuming that all patients where of the same severity of injury)
Jew over non-jew
Dafka over sufek
Religious over non-religious
man over woman
adult (over bar mitzvah) over child
As you can see the person with the most potential to do mitzvot is the one who is saved first.
Hashem should keep us from ever having to make such painful choices and bring peace to am yisroel bimhara byamanu.

Last edited by marina on Thu, Jul 06 2017, 8:05 pm; edited 1 time in total

marina

Thu, Jul 06 2017, 8:04 pm

crust wrote:

I feel like if all the distortions weren't enough, 2017 had to come up with some new ones.

Whoever cannot learn, should not pasken.

In that same Gemara, there's a different discussion of who should be freed from jail first. Its the woman's chance.
I am not intrested in making this another mishpacha, pedestal, women's rights thread, but I want to point out that no. Things are not taken so literal out of the Torah and put into practice.

women are freed from jail first for fear of rape.... unless sodomy is practiced in that area, in which case men are saved first.

The only exception is for one's mother. You can save her over a man.

Jeanette

Thu, Jul 06 2017, 8:07 pm

There are rules of triage that all paramedics follow. Basically the patients who are likely to die without treatment but have a good chance of survival with it are treated first.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triage

amother

Forestgreen

Thu, Jul 06 2017, 8:11 pm

amother wrote:

There's an amother who is a first responder, and she was told by her Rav she's obligated to treat men before she treats women.

There was a thread about it a few years ago.

I haven't had a chance to read through the entire thread yet- but I am a first responder (paramedic). We absolutely do not favor any gender. In a situation where there are multiple patients they are triaged and treated in order of severity of injury.

marina

Thu, Jul 06 2017, 8:20 pm

Here are some more sources that discuss this...

http://www.torahmusings.com/20.....ship/

http://www.sefaria.org/Mishnah.....ng=bi

Anyway, while looking for Rivka Batya's comment, I saw that I had written about this topic in probably 7-10 separate threads.... I should give it up already LOL

marina

Thu, Jul 06 2017, 8:22 pm

In that same thread, she explains how this situation happens "often" when she responds to terrorist attacks... http://www.imamother.com/forum.....rt=80

ButterflyGarden wrote:

Quote:

unlikely for a situation to arise in which all factors are perfectly equal
there are usually factors that enables one to decide who is more likely to be saved with minimal risk

Unfortunately, this is not true. The case I was talking about earlier was a piguah (terrorist bombing). I often found myself in a situation where there where many people in front of me all of whom had life threatening conditions that if not treated in the next few minutes meant certain death. Sadly, in the minutes that mattered most, there where wounded that medics. People sometimes think that halacha and gamara go off on random debates that are not applicable to todays life. this issue of redemption is very much alive in Israel. Baruch Hashem for the last couple of years we have not (at least here in Yerushalim) had to put this halacha to much use. Hashem should watch over us and keep us safe and far from the need to use this halacha.

PinkFridge

Thu, Jul 06 2017, 8:30 pm

As I mentioned elsewhere, I've heard medical ethicists like Rav Yitzchak Weiner and Rav Asher Weiss speak, this year the former. I have no idea what goes on in E"Y but here in many locations there are medical ethics seminars held for ongoing education for medical professionals, and some sessions are opened to the public.
It is obvious that which order to save whom in is discussed and I would assume part of training. I also assume that there is a higher degree of nuance involved than men first, whoever can perform more mitzvos first.

marina

Thu, Jul 06 2017, 8:41 pm

youngishbear wrote:

If potential is the deciding factor, doesn't a child take precedence? Statistically they have more years of mitzvah observance ahead of them.

Yeah, I think we got to that somewhere by the end of that thread...

marina

Thu, Jul 06 2017, 8:42 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

So what do they say when you've heard them speak on this topic?

amother

Tan

Thu, Jul 06 2017, 9:13 pm

when I asked dh ops question. he laughed how op compared rambams psak and this. firstly no there is no distinction between men and women when it comes to pikuach nefesh.

life is important to hashem. then he said no we dont always pasken halacha in one straight way. and its not how you think it works. halacha works different then you think. it goes according to who the gedolim are at the time for halacha. its more complicated then the example of the rambam. lets leave halacha to men. dont we women have so many other obligations and halacha to learn? I find hilchos loshon hara so hard and I havent learned them all even once. and im ashamed of myself. so no I have so many halachos pertaining to women that I need to relearn and refresh I dont have time for more.

pause

Thu, Jul 06 2017, 9:19 pm

amother wrote:

And here we go full circle... Exploding anger

marina

Thu, Jul 06 2017, 9:22 pm

amother wrote:

Even when you don't get an answer about whether women are inferior to men, you still get an answer about whether women are inferior to men. Wink

Boca00

Thu, Jul 06 2017, 9:52 pm

If the woman is more critically injured than the man, of course she is saved first. It's only in a case where ALL things being equal and only one can be saved that the man's life is saved first- it HAS to be one or the other. Who here would have a problem if the woman was supposed to be saved first?

And who here has a problem that a Jews life takes precedence over a non-Jew, all other things being equal?