Does Hatzalah train to save men before women?

amother

Burgundy

Thu, Jul 06 2017, 9:56 pm

Boca00 wrote:

If the woman is more critically injured than the man, of course she is saved first. It's only in a case where ALL things being equal and only one can be saved that the man's life is saved first- it HAS to be one or the other. Who here would have a problem if the woman was supposed to be saved first?

And who here has a problem that a Jews life takes precedence over a non-Jew, all other things being equal?

Re your last question... ummmm, I do embarrassed

amother

Blush

Thu, Jul 06 2017, 10:01 pm

amother wrote:

Re your last question... ummmm, I do embarrassed

Do you take issue with saving your brother over a stranger? What about you cousin over a stranger?
All Jews are family. Proof is in the putting. Today, when I was on the train, the only ones who walked on and snobbed me out were Jews. Why?
We have a connection that runs so deep. The non-Jews may not have even noticed me. The Jews, can't not notice me. (Snobbing me out? Okay, so they weren't the trained the right way)

We always notice each other, and feel connected because we are family, and family takes care of each other before strangers.

Now, if the non Jew is someone you know, that is different.

treestump

Thu, Jul 06 2017, 10:07 pm

Boca00 wrote:

I have a problem with both.

A big problem.

I don't understand the whitewashing over here. They are ethical and moral problems and I'm not okay with either of the things you mentioned.

marina

Thu, Jul 06 2017, 10:12 pm

Boca00 wrote:

Hmm and what about a person over an animal?

And like another poster mentioned- would you save your child before your cleaning lady?

Where do we draw the line that one life takes precedence over another?

A person's life is not the same as an animal's. Why is this relevant here?

I know the answer, I just want to hear you say it.

Boca00

Thu, Jul 06 2017, 10:22 pm

marina wrote:

I would save someone I loved over someone who was my employee.

So if I had a nonJewish child or parent I would save them over my Jewish cleaning lady.

Why is ok to decide who to save based on who you love more, but not on any other factors? How is THAT ethical?

Regarding saving people over animals, maybe that shouldn't be so simple either... Thousands (?) of people would disagree with you over that as well.

amother

Forestgreen

Thu, Jul 06 2017, 10:24 pm

Boca00 wrote:

Paramedic Imamother here.

There's 2 angles to look at this from:

1. Your legal duty when working in the capacity as a first responder.
I cannot vouch for Israels EMS protocols but in the United States making a conscious decision of "which patient to save" that is based on anything other than clinical criterion, is a surefire way to get your a$$ sued.

2. The Torah perspective being quoted here is very cut and dry, and frankly will never happen in the real world. The situation being presented of two victims with all injuries exactly the same is unrealistic. It just doesn't happen. Furthermore, in the pre-hospital setting we lack the ability to definitively diagnose the way that hospitals with diagnostic/imaging equipment can. We operate off clinical judgment that is based on presenting symptoms, vital signs, our assessments and the limited diagnostic equipment we have (such as Lifepak monitors) but there is no way for us to say unequivocally that 2 patients are "equally injured".

Beyond all the points mentioned, I question if this poster was legit. Something about what she wrote feels off to me. I understand that unfortunately there are mass terror incidents in Israel (all too often Sad

) but fortunately there are plenty of first responders and undoubtedly there is some sort of triage system in place. An EMT or Paramedic operating on his or her own "rules" is quite frankly a danger to the public.

marina

Thu, Jul 06 2017, 10:27 pm

Boca00 wrote:

Why is ok to decide who to save based on who you love more, but not on any other factors? How is THAT ethical?

We are fundamentally selfish, that's why. We save ourselves first over others. And we save those we love next.

There's no way to expect anything else from people, although there are certainly exceptions to this. For example, the NonJews who hid Jewish families from the Nazis put our lives above their own and those of their families. You could get shot for giving a Jew a glass of water and these people hid entire families in their basements and farms.

I do not know that I would be able to do that, prob not. In any case, you can't expect that level of selflessness from the rest of us mortals.

marina

Thu, Jul 06 2017, 10:30 pm

amother wrote:

Paramedic Imamother here.

The Torah perspective being quoted here is very cut and dry, and frankly will never happen in the real world. The situation being presented of two victims with all injuries exactly the same is unrealistic. It just doesn't happen.
...
Beyond all the points mentioned, I question if this poster was legit. Something about what she wrote feels off to me. I understand that unfortunately there are mass terror incidents in Israel (all too often Sad

So you do not think she was truthful? I dk if she is still posting here. Maybe Yael will be in touch w her.

Boca00

Thu, Jul 06 2017, 10:32 pm

marina wrote:

I agree with that, I'm no incredibly selfless person either. But that still doesn't mean it's an inherently ethical decision and it seems that people are hung up on being ethical over all else, and no other criterion should be allowed into making this decision.

What's your answer on why humans over animals?

marina

Thu, Jul 06 2017, 10:39 pm

Boca00 wrote:

Whenever possible, we try to act ethically. I dk what else to say on that.

Also human lives are categorically different than those of animals to me. Human lives are worth more fundamentally in my worldview.

Go for it. Why are you making the comparison?

Boca00

Thu, Jul 06 2017, 10:55 pm

marina wrote:

You asked for it.... Wink

Who decides what's worth more? We have feelings, they have feelings. We both want to live. Is it their intelligence? Would you save an intelligent animal over an unintelligent human? Its not their feelings, desire to live or intelligence that makes a human life more valuable.

I leave the ethical decisions to the One that created the world. The world was created for us, to serve Him. So our life would take precedence over a non-Jew, and a non-Jew would take precedence over an animal, because he too can serve G-d.

I don't see why making a random decision is more ethical than listening to the One who created the world.

There you have it....

marina

Thu, Jul 06 2017, 11:00 pm

Boca00 wrote:

You asked for it.... Wink

1. I don't think Hashem values Jews over nonJews and wants Jewish lives to be saved first That's not the God I believe in.

2. Time for a mod to move this into a non-public forum.

3. This is another example of why we cannot rely on religion to dictate morality.

Boca00

Thu, Jul 06 2017, 11:08 pm

marina wrote:

Agree with #2. Not with #1 & #3. I won't address #1 as this is not a private forum, like you pointed out.

Starting a SO on #3 so I don't hijack this thread... See you there?