Does Hatzalah train to save men before women?

cnc

Thu, Jul 06 2017, 11:43 pm

sequoia wrote:

It's amazing you're totally fine with Nazi ideology as long as we're the uber and they're the unter.

Nazi ideology was not simply that they were superior and we were lower. Their ideology was that everyone else besides them needed to be wiped out.
How can you compare that to saving someone that you may feel a kinship with, over someone that you don't when ALL OTHER FACTORS ARE EQUAL. (Just pointing out that if the choice is between my non-Jewish cleaning woman and a Jewish man that I've never met before, all other factors are not equal.)

amother

Black

Fri, Jul 07 2017, 4:06 am

amother wrote:

I think many of us find it disturbing that the Torah, which we have all been taught to believe is fair, just, pleasant, etc. doesn't appear to recognize basic human rights. . .

I think the point being missed here as so often in other threads that this is DRY LAW. Go speak to a secular lawyer how it works in the court of law.
We get all worked up and emotional about the wording of a dry law.
And forget to calculate in the factor that this is not how it works in reality. That is why we have dayanin and rabbanim. Human beings who take your questions and consider humanity, dignity etc into the question and then give you a psak specifically for your person, your situation etc.
If it were so simple as to read a halacha and follow it then we would not need all these learned men who are trained to help us in our path, no would we?
I grew up in a very patriarchial home and had a strong feministic phase. Until I realized it is all in the eyes of the beholder. Law is not about emotions and if a sefer mentions something that irks us it does not equal yiddishkeit being cruel to women. It means that it was written without emotion. Dry.
And then we have amazingly trained rabbanim who (should) consider the human behind the question.
Yes even in my very patriachial home I have seen those family members who are dayanim completely dedicate their time and patience to make life as easy as possible esp for women.
So everyone please stop looking for something to grab and bash yiddishkeit with.

ETA: and yes it bothers me when I see save "jew over nonjew" and "man over woman" it feels inhumane. But this is not about emotions. This is about choosing in a situation where it is impossible to make choices. Andd believe me it is never a cut and dry answer. Depends on so many factors.

(Thank G-d there is no hugging option here because those are just passive agressive ways to send me a negative message. You wanna do it? Say it out loud)

PinkFridge

Fri, Jul 07 2017, 7:40 am

amother wrote:

Do you take issue with saving your brother over a stranger? What about you cousin over a stranger?
All Jews are family. Proof is in the putting. Today, when I was on the train, the only ones who walked on and snobbed me out were Jews. Why?
We have a connection that runs so deep. The non-Jews may not have even noticed me. The Jews, can't not notice me. (Snobbing me out? Okay, so they weren't the trained the right way)

We always notice each other, and feel connected because we are family, and family takes care of each other before strangers.

Now, if the non Jew is someone you know, that is different.

There is also the concept of mipnei aiva. Aiva usually is a function of how the non-Jews perceive it, because I don't think we ever had an issue with this.
Again, it's all things being equal.

pause

Fri, Jul 07 2017, 9:08 am

Ruchel wrote:

I unfortunately happen to know the era well... Yes, it was generally the case. Of course you can always find someone who did or wanted to do differently. Doesn't mean most didn't try to save women and children.

I don't have statistics. I only know the stories I was told regarding my grandparents and their parents and regarding Rebbes and rabbanim of some sects.

I didn't say they didn't try to save women and children. You said they were treated equally. I say they weren't because they knew they didn't stand a chance. It was survival of the fittest, so at least let those who are independent and strong get a chance at survival.

marina

Fri, Jul 07 2017, 12:02 pm

amother wrote:

1. Sometimes there is no way to consider the human behind the question and come up with a different answer. See, e.g. agunah.

2. In the entire above post you are wholly dependent on a rav to interpret the halacha for you and tell you what is ratzon Hashem. Sure, sometimes this works out but sometimes it doesn't. See the next point for an example.

3. I brought a post on page 2 specifically about a rav who advised a first responder in a very cut and dry way on whom to save. It was a simple flow chart and it determined, in this poster's eyes, who died and who lived.

amother

Blonde

Fri, Jul 07 2017, 12:05 pm

amother wrote:

And somehow all the people who wrote down these laws and interpret them are men. As amazingly trained as people as they all have their own biases.

amother

Black

Fri, Jul 07 2017, 12:58 pm

marina wrote:

Yes, guess what I agree. By men. This is an orthodox jewish site. And orthodox - read true - judaism says that "moshe kibel torah misnai umesorah leyoshua etc" this is our religion. From one rabbi to his student. I dont understand the griping. If one does not like or agree one does not have to define themselves as orthodox. Why to trees have green leaves and not blue ones? This is how it is.
Read the 13 ikrei emuna - in particular the 7th, 8th and 9th. I think it couldnt be clearer than that.

And by the way I am an aguna of too many years because of complicated matters.
And I am not a woman who rolls over and takes it.
I am strong minded, strong willed and a woman who knows what she wants and stands up for her self and her rights. And yet I do not think of myself as cleverer than G-d and accept that this is his will. I believe that we have existed for about 3500 years precisely because we have not changed our Torah.
Yes modern times have brought great things for us and women have it easier. But the basic principiles of our religion has not and shall never change.
Yes it is men who have and will continue to explain halacha. And not because my brain is not capable (believe me I suffered enough as a child because of the degrading description that I have a "mans brain" was given to me with the idea that it is actually a compliemnt (!!!)) but because I accept that if Hashem decided it to be this way than so it shall be.
I am happy in my role, in raising my children as strong confident independent free thinking, torah abiding people. I am happy and fulfilled in my role as a human, as a woman, as a mother, as a working woman, as a friend, as a daughter, as a sister, as a mentor, as a caring human being helping others in need, as a listening ear, even sometimes as a beneficiary of others kindness because of my difficult situation (trust me it can really touch your pride!), as a law abiding citizen of my country, as a liberal minded woman when it comes to human rights and dignity. I do not distinguish in every day life whether I can or cannot do something because I am a woman.
But when it comes to accepting reality I accept and do not question that men are the ones who tell us what halacha is. Because I say the ani maamin every day. And I am proud to be an orthodox jewish woman.

amother

Black

Fri, Jul 07 2017, 1:02 pm

amother wrote:

And somehow all the people who wrote down these laws and interpret them are men. As amazingly trained as people as they all have their own biases.

Most of my reply is in my post above where I replied to marina.
Just wanted to add this: a man who interprets not according to halacha because of his biases is not fit to be in that role of rabbi. And if you think me naive then you are wrong.
Again if you have a different view of the world then there are choices out there. But how can women come on a site that is meant to be orthodox and spew things that are clearly against our fundamental facts?
Do you believe that the torah shebe'al pe is just as true as the written law?
If yes then how can you think that you can now change things?
And if no then why are you orthodox?

amother

Vermilion

Fri, Jul 07 2017, 1:26 pm

amother wrote:

You are naive. How many batei Dinim take into account extraneous facts as "relevant or important"? Why would status, wealth, or other issues unrelated to the specific fact patten be asked or brought into the discussion?
If Halacha is so clear cut and dry, why would the fact that one is not wealthy make them not liable to pay a debt? A relative just went to a beis din as someone owes them a lot of money. Seemed clear cut based on Halacha but then they were told "but they have no money so therefore we won't make them pay".
So if I can't afford my food bill I can just steal from the Kosher Mart? If they owe the money, they owe the money! Ask my relative to forgive it, have them work it off or make a payment plan or something. But the Halacha should still be the same! (And no, they aren't so poor that they can't feed their family, pay their bills, have a place to live...).

Every person has biases and it is important to recognize that.
We learn that a judge is supposed to be wealthy so not to impart prejudice to the one who pays for their livelihood. How many Rabbanim are truly wealthy and don't rely on communal funds?

amother

Black

Fri, Jul 07 2017, 1:30 pm

amother wrote:

And who says you know all the real factors and facts that concluded to this psak.
And who says that this beis din was ok? I did not.
What I said is that men are the ones interperting halacha (not out of their own minds, at least it shouldnt be) and yes some rabbanim out there should not be that. But I have witnessed enough in my life to know how many rabbanim truly are righteous and unbiased. Who have lost people support precisely they defended someone against the wealthy etc. Because they do what the Torah said, this is their job. And this is the ideal

dancingqueen

Fri, Jul 07 2017, 3:03 pm

amother wrote:

Wow, I would think aguna of all women would be most resentful of men having all the decision making power in halachic Judaism. I've heard many posit that if men were the ones who were agunim a halachic loophole would have been found already.

Hugs for your situation, I hope you are freed soon.

amother

Vermilion

Fri, Jul 07 2017, 4:48 pm

amother wrote:

Super respected Rabbanim, their names are known beyond our community. I don't want to say names as I want to protect privacy and not out myself.
I do know the details. I was a confidant for those involved and have seen the papers and information.

So yes, I know the facts. Yes, these are major gedolim and are known throughout the country and even the world.
And yes they can be biased too.

Anyone can be biased- if they are living, breathing beings they are by definition going to have preferences, choices and biases. We only hope that they can put fact and Halacha over these issues.

amother

Aqua

Fri, Jul 07 2017, 7:22 pm

mommy3b2c wrote:

This is ridiculous. Mg husband is a paramedic. He does triage and treats the most seriously injured person first. Whether they are a man or a woman. I don't know who that poster was who said that she was told to treat men first, but she was a troll and she was lying.

My husband said its not true that mem fo first. All get treated by severity like the paramedic's wife said. My husband is a BLS responder. Is the ima who sppke about a movie basing even a drop on a movie? They can distort a lot from the truth.

Edited &Corrected from mistakes.