Attention Monsey Moms

amother

Fuchsia

Sun, Jul 16 2017, 3:36 pm

amother wrote:

So says an anonymous poster... Wink

Nobody said the troubles of obtaining a car service isn't real. It is hard. But that doesn't mean the community has to be attacked because of your difficulties finding a driver...

No one is 'attacking' the community. People are questioning, trying to understand or find viable options. These questions seem to be triggering strong sentiments in those that are bound to this restriction, is it perhaps an underlying resentment subconsciously surfacing?

amother

Cyan

Sun, Jul 16 2017, 3:40 pm

amother wrote:

So says an anonymous poster... Wink

Nobody said the troubles of obtaining a car service isn't real. It is hard. But that doesn't mean the community has to be attacked because of your difficulties finding a driver...

Says anonymous poster Sad

I don't have to out my location. This site has had so many monsey threads this past year like never before.

Would it take attacking the community to affect some changes? I highly doubt it. It is just easier to let out some rumors than to have someone real with a face and a name like a frum politician, the head of an organization or a respected Rav make a statement. No one wants to be the one all the women will come running to for solution.

I would give you a condescending hug but I don't mean to attack you. We have a problem bigger than you and me can solve. Chumras without leadership is the tip of the iceberg.

amother

Fuchsia

Sun, Jul 16 2017, 4:56 pm

amother wrote:

Many people, as a rule, only travel with women drivers.

Being that in Monsey most women drivers are Jewish, I find this to be the epitome of hypocrisy. If you sincerely believe that driving a car is not tznius or should not be done for any particular religious reason, why ask that from any other Jewish woman? It doesn't matter if its allowed and acceptable in her community. You are still asking her to do something that you personally believe is not right.

amother

Yellow

Sun, Jul 16 2017, 5:06 pm

Women drivers, as in from non-Jewish companies.

And just because something is correct for me in my community, doesn't mean it is correct for you in your community.

If I choose to observe a chumrah, who am I to look down on your not observing the same one?

No, I don't drive, but I am not going to say that another woman who lives in a different community is doing wrong by driving. Each person has to consult their rav and follow his ruling. I would feel no guilt riding with a female Jewish driver as long as she is doing something acceptable for her lifestyle. I'm not the type to bang other people on the head for being different from me... And neither should you.

That's living Judaism; respecting that there are different people and different ways of life, but we are all following the same Torah when we follow our Rabbonim -- even if they pasken differently.

amother

Fuchsia

Sun, Jul 16 2017, 5:28 pm

amother wrote:

Majority of the women drivers are Jewish. Just take a peek at the classified sections to see how many of these Jewish drivers are utilized by the community.

No one is talking about looking down at other people, I'm talking about utilizing something that you don't personally believe is the right thing to do. If you personally believe women driving is not allowed, why would you want to reap any benefits from a Jewish woman doing just that? If women driving is forbidden in your world due to religious reasons, why would you want to eat fruit of the forbidden tree? Their children wouldn't be accepted in your children's school for precisely this reason, but the parent body of the school has no qualms in 'using' them as a way around their chumros.

I'm so definitely not banging other people for being different than me. I'm actually admiring them - looking up to them. They're showing me that being frum, ehrlich and tznius has no relation to the overabundance of chumros placed on the Chassidish world.

amother

Yellow

Sun, Jul 16 2017, 6:06 pm

amother wrote:

I'm talking about utilizing something that you don't personally believe is the right thing to do. If you personally believe women driving is not allowed, why would you want to reap any benefits from a Jewish woman doing just that? If women driving is forbidden in your world due to religious reasons, why would you want to eat fruit of the forbidden tree?

"Forbidden" applies to things that are treif. Driving is not treif. It is not against halacha. I do not drive because it is CHUMRAH, not halacha.

Just as a side point: I think that not driving extends from the time when drivers were real baal hagalas, who sat in the front of a wagon, whipping horses. It would be totally unseemly for a woman to be there. A car is arguably different, but because of minhag/chumrah, we don't drive nowadays, because that's been passed down to us. I respect those who drive, and understand those, like myself, that don't.

It's a personal choice, and that should be respected for what it is. I CHOOSE to live in a community that chooses that women do not drive. You don't. That's fine.

amother

Fuchsia

Sun, Jul 16 2017, 6:19 pm

amother wrote:

"
It's a personal choice, and that should be respected for what it is. I CHOOSE to live in a community that chooses that women do not drive. You don't. That's fine.

Yet you are calling me to go into your community while driving a car! In your community that is not tznius (thats how it's taught to the women!), so why are you inviting me to drive down your streets and do an inappropriate thing in you area? You should be dropped off on the outskirts instead of bringing in an untznius thing in the midst of your neighborhood?

amother

Denim

Sun, Jul 16 2017, 6:23 pm

amother wrote:

Can you please stop your cynicism?

I'm not part of this community who doesn't drive though your posts are clearly coming over as trying to 'catch out' the other poster rather than an actual sincere desire to understand.

amother

Fuchsia

Sun, Jul 16 2017, 6:24 pm

amother wrote:

It's a personal choice, and that should be respected for what it is. I CHOOSE to live in a community that chooses that women do not drive. You don't. That's fine.

And since I reside in this community I can comfortably state that people don't want to live by the consequences of their choices. If you believe me that women shouldn't drive, don't ask another woman to do it for you. If you believe that having internet is wrong, don't go asking someone else to grab that internet deal for you, or look up some info for you and so on. If you inherently believe something is wrong, don't ask others to do it for you regardless of the other person's choices.

I respect your choices and admire those who abide by them wholeheartedly. But I cannot look up to those who want both sides of the deal.

amother

Fuchsia

Sun, Jul 16 2017, 6:33 pm

amother wrote:

I'm not trying to 'catch out' anyone. Being a part of this community, I'm just sooo tired of all these platitudes, hypocrisies and pretend holiness about these kinds of chumros. What I'm trying to point out how the hypocritical behavior speaks louder than the words that have been brainwashed into our beings. I am exposed to this daily and I've yet to ever get a decent response to any of it. Same on this thread - instead of anyone responding to why is it more tznius to sit in a car with a strange man than to drive myself, all I get is - "respect my choices" and so on...

So let me say this - I respect your choices - I respect your choice that its untznius for a woman to drive down your streets, but don't ask me to be the woman to drive down your streets! I respect your choice of not being exposed to the internet, but don't ask me to be exposed for your benefit either!

amother

Cyan

Sun, Jul 16 2017, 7:50 pm

amother wrote:

I respect those who drive, and understand those, like myself, that don't.

It's a personal choice, and that should be respected for what it is. I CHOOSE to live in a community that chooses that women do not drive. You don't. That's fine.

I admire your descision to abide by the current standard of our community and for vigorously defending your right to do so.
I cannot wrap my head around the fact that you believe this a perfectly normal chumrah while using the Internet. The same people who banned cars also banned the use of Internet be it business or pleasure. The difference is that one is visible and one is not. I don't have an issue with using Internet or driving a car but most likely your chassidus and its schools would be equally outraged at both.

amother

Yellow

Sun, Jul 16 2017, 9:04 pm

amother wrote:

If you believe me that women shouldn't drive, don't ask another woman to do it for you... If you inherently believe something is wrong, don't ask others to do it for you regardless of the other person's choices.

The problem is that you have skewed understanding of things.

All of the people that I know do NOT believe that driving is inherently wrong; they feel it isn't for a chasidishe woman specifically, but not that a women driving in and of itself is wrong.

Compare it to hechsherim: I won't eat something with a plain OU, because it isn't my standard, something that I choose to take into my home. BUT it is 100% indisputably kosher. I would easily allow a friend to bring that item into my house and eat it at the same table as me. Driving is also not my personal standard, but I would never say it is not kosher. If your rabbi says it is kosher for you to drive, it is kosher! So why should it bother me if you come into my territory driving? You are doing nothing wrong.

In fact, it is a beautiful relationship of klal Yisroel working together to help one another. Lady drivers that drive for parnassa have a safe, reliable way to make money in the Jewish community, and Jewish women that don't drive have a safe, reliable way to get where they need to go. I use a specific lady driver whenever I need to go out, and she 100% tznuis, aidel and fine. A beautiful neshama. I would never consider what she is doing to be wrong. She is not me.

Yiddishkeit has mitvzos that leave room for the path to be custom-crafted to the person's community and lifestyle. That is one of the awesome things about Judaism. You can be kosher and I can be kosher -- even if we are worlds apart in behavior. We still have schar for our mitzvos, even if our lives look different.

amother

Yellow

Sun, Jul 16 2017, 9:08 pm

amother wrote:

I cannot wrap my head around the fact that you believe this a perfectly normal chumrah while using the Internet. The same people who banned cars also banned the use of Internet be it business or pleasure.

I have no excuse for being on imamother. I am fully aware that this is a failing of mine and that I should be stronger. I have a "thing" for intellectual debate, and my taaveh is pulling me here. I agree that I shouldn't.

However, you are wrong about the internet being banned for business. I specifically asked a shaila about using it for my work and was told it is okay with a filter. I do need to make a tighter filter and block out even sites like this, and I pray I will get there soon, since obviously, this isn't for work. But for now, I am human. I agree that I am doing something rather not good.

At least I'm honest. I think we all have areas where we are weak and need to grow. One negative doesn't cancel out all of the positive.

amother

Fuchsia

Sun, Jul 16 2017, 9:20 pm

amother wrote:

Your statements relate to personal standards, not community restrictions. The primary difference between the two is that personal standards are of your choosing and community restrictions are forced upon you. I do not see the beauty in anything that's forced upon people.

The mitzvos we have apply to all and most of them aren't open to too much interpretations. Chumros on the other hand are of personal nature, and should remain such - NOT forced upon communities. And especially not used to disqualify one from schools and other public entities. These communities do just the opposite of allowing custom-crafted lifestyles and choices. It's one and the same for all. They don't allow lives to be different, and require everyone to toe the same line.

What these communities are basically demanding is that everyone living within must abide by their rules with no leeway, and everyone living outside should assist them unquestionably and with no reciprocation.

amother

Yellow

Sun, Jul 16 2017, 9:27 pm

amother wrote:

Your statements relate to personal standards, not community restrictions.
What these communities are basically demanding is that everyone living within must abide by their rules with no leeway, and everyone living outside should assist them unquestionably and with no reciprocation.

Again, it seems your understanding is skewed.

It is MY personal choice to live in this community; I don't have to be here if I don't want. It's not a cult. No one is holding me hostage. This is a community standard that I can choose to abide by, or can choose to ignore. If I were to choose to separate myself from community standards, that would be my personal choice and, like all choices in life, it would have natural consequences.

Communities around the world are made up of like-minded individuals with similar goals.
People choose to be a part of certain communities or to separate themselves from certain communities through actions and behavior. It is all personal choice.

amother

Yellow

Sun, Jul 16 2017, 9:32 pm

amother wrote:

It's one and the same for all. They don't allow lives to be different, and require everyone to toe the same line.

Oh, and btw, I happen to have a blast in life! Not interested in giving away my identity, but I've definitely made a name for myself through my talents and hobbies in life. I have a great personality and all of the people I know do as well.

When you lump us together and view us all as products of the cookie-cutter, it's easy to say we are all the same. But when each person is allowed to shine in their own light, we're all quite different. Blessedly so. Shame you can't see that. Time to take off the blinders of resentment you hold towards the community.

Saying we are all the same is the same "racist" mindset as saying all African Americans look alike.

amother

Fuchsia

Sun, Jul 16 2017, 9:39 pm

amother wrote:

I don't agree with this at all. Many of us are living here not by personal choice, just by the circumstances of being born in this particular community. It is excruciatingly difficult to disentangle oneself from your family, friends, jobs and the education (or lack of education) and set down roots elsewhere. Furthermore, many of these chumros are new and being forced upon life-long residents in the communities. On paper it sounds ideal - just move elsewhere. In actuality, its one of the most difficult things to do.

Communities are ESTABLISHED with like-minded individuals. But those ideal are often hijacked as time moves on. Being that we are raised with particular skills and education, the options available are extremely limited or equally distasteful.