Day camp "bunk"? | Imamother

amother

Amber

Tue, Jul 18 2017, 11:45 pm

I don't know why this is such a big deal. I moved from NY to another region of the US and there are certainly many differences in language, dialect, accent, etc. That goes for the the frum community as well as the general population. I agree that in NY Yiddish has an influence on the spoken language, and I believe that in my current location we are heavily influenced by the local immigrant population. That's how things go.

MagentaYenta

Wed, Jul 19 2017, 12:00 am

amother wrote:

I don't think it's a big deal, it is a noticeable difference for some of us, and sometimes it hinders communications. I have nephew who speaks Yinglish to the point that it is difficult to understand him. Not only does he have misplaced prepositions or unwieldy syntax but his English is peppered with Yiddish expressions and words and he has some kind of an accent. It may be Yiddish, I really wouldn't know. I do know he is a second generation American brought up in an English speaking home. Similarly I opened a FB link a few weeks back that was Lipa Schmeltzer, the post noted that his commentary was in English. I listened to it twice and could not get the gist of what he was attempting to communicate due to the Yinglish and frequent use of Yiddish words and a heavy accent similar to that of my nephew.

I have to admit, my community is international, people here speak with accents. I get it. I wonder how people like my nephew who spoke good unaccented American English can develop such strong accents after only a few years and completely unlearn a language that is spoken in his home on a daily basis? Is it an affectation? Would Lipa's accent be an affectation as well? I'm merely curious about all of this.

zaq

Wed, Jul 19 2017, 12:15 am

Magentayenta--yes, it's an affectation. Or to be kinder, let's call it an adaptation. Protective coloration to make them blend in with the locals. Conformity is a prime value in the Yinglish speaking world. So is yichus. If you didn't come from a Yeshivish background you're going to do all in your power to hide that fact. Speaking the King's English would be a dead giveaway.

One wonders why the Twerskis of Minnesota and Wisconsin speak a perfectly educated American English. Maybe because, having bona fide yichus, they can afford to.

33055

Wed, Jul 19 2017, 12:17 am

amother wrote:

It is not a big deal when someone stays local, but it becomes a big deal when someone moves in larger society. It is not the mark of a refined educated person to misuse words, and it is can be a source of mockery.

I don't really care how others speak. I find the misuse of words interesting, but I care deeply that I raise children who are not marked by these speech patterns.

MagentaYenta

Wed, Jul 19 2017, 12:24 am

zaq wrote:

Bingo!! The Twerskis don't even have the Minnesota accent going on. I had a friend years ago who was a linguist and speech pathologist by trade.She had the skill of being able to identify where someone lived, sometimes how long they lived in a geographic location.

But you are right about the protective coloration. It makes sense. My moment of clarity has been achieved. TYVM Hooray

etky

Wed, Jul 19 2017, 1:19 am

Not all the examples on this thread attributed to 'frumspeak' are grammatical appropriations from Yiddish or inherently incorrect usages.
Some are just neutral examples of different regional variations: tumblesauce vs. somersault, sliding pond vs sliding board, sprinkles vs. jimmies, coke vs pop, freeway vs. expressway, city vs. downtown etc.
DH who is from the Philadelphia area and I (NY) always have pseudo-arguments about the 'correct' terms for many things Smile

Local differences can also express the cultural sensitivies of ethnic groups that predominate in a certain region: cutlet vs. breast, expecting vs. pregnant, nursing vs. breast feeding etc.
Sometimes certain groups/regions preserve older usages that elsewhere seem anachronistic: briefcase, knapsack, pre1a. Obviously, older people, across the board, are more prone to this.
My grandmother would sometimes say icebox instead of refrigerator. My father used the word "dungarees" the other day and I had a laughing fit....
None of the above is inherently incorrect or exclusive to the frum community.
MIxing Yiddish and English or applying Yiddish grammatical constructions to English is a different story and I can see why this might grate on some people's nerves.
However, as a speaker of Hebrish I am not exactly in a position to pass judgement on others who might mix and mangle other languages embarrassed

DrMom

Wed, Jul 19 2017, 1:34 am

I guess I draw a distinction between local differences in vocabulary (pop vs. soda, lorry vs. truck, city vs. downtown) and appropriating word X to mean Y (briefcase to mean knapsack, potato to mean watermelon, etc.).

Although if enough people eventually use potato to mean watermelon, then I suppose potato will eventually become a valid way of naming this

.
A variation of the Frindle concept, I suppose.

moonstone

Wed, Jul 19 2017, 5:41 am

zaq wrote:

Frumspeak, and one of my many linguistic peeves. I read it so often on ima that to my horror I once caught myself saying it. Dirt sticks.

I know what you mean! The examples of frum speak that make me cringe the hardest are:

stay/eat by someone
aside for
besides for

And I actually found myself saying one of these the other day. I was horrified!

33055

Wed, Jul 19 2017, 7:00 am

zaq wrote:

The Twerski I know is highly educated law professor. He was a teaching fellow at Harvard. It comes down to education rather than yichus.

Lippa is not a conformist. AFAIK his yichus is not in question; however, he is started his education very late in life. He is not unintelligible by any means.

It also comes down to how open The community is. The Twerskis don't live in the closed society that New Square is. Everyone in New Square lives regimented lives, and conformity is prized.

I think when you live closely with a group of people, you tend to subconsciously mimic them. My yichus is not in question either, but I have altered my public speech in an effort to be understood. I ask for schnitzel when I know the word is cutlets because there is no point not to.

zaq

Wed, Jul 19 2017, 8:41 am

My grandparents' generation knew from genuine iceboxes. Probably my parents,too, in their early years. In my youth I called the freezer compartment of the fridge (not the whole fridge) the icebox, assuming it was so named because that was where one kept the ice cubes. Not till I read a memoir describing a family's excitement to be acquiring a fridge and getting rid of the icebox did the light dawn.

I still think the term "icebox " has a certain whimsical charm that the term "freezer " lacks.

amother

Amber

Wed, Jul 19 2017, 8:56 am

I guess I just don't see the harm in kosher supermarkets labeling the chicken in a "Jewish" way. I would bet that other cultures do the same. Nor do I single out yiddish accents when noting that at times I have difficulty understanding English spoken with an accent. If I walked into my local Target and asked for a knapsack they would probably look at me like I have two heads. So? If I was unfamiliar with the region I could describe it. If I move here I acclimate and call it a backpack.

This sort of reminds me of a conversation my kids have every time they get together with their NY and Lakewood cousins. Who is in kindergarten, who is in pre1a, who is in pre k, who is in the other kindergarten. I mean, I get it when four year olds feel the need to discuss this at length. But adults generally recognize that it's part of language.

amother

Papaya

Wed, Jul 19 2017, 9:57 am

amother wrote:

I'm not a grammar wizard, so I can't tell you what is technically wrong. If it is? The linguists here would say 'no such thing as wrong'.

However - 'in the mood of' is not a common phrase (Try googling it).

"In the mood for" or "in the mood to" are common phrases.

So is the statement "No, I'm not in the mood" (referring to something asked of you to do).

Thank you. You learn something new every day on imamother.

amother

Bisque

Wed, Jul 19 2017, 1:14 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

Of, for and to are all prepositions. And even though they are all parts of speech called prepositions, each word has a different meaning. Ergo a different usage. So if you looked up the word of in a thesaurus it would not say for or to. When words have different meanings they are not interchangeable. Once you know the parts of speech you can understand how a word functions grammatically and in meaning.

I hope this helped a bit. English is supposedly one of the most difficult of languages for a non English speaker to learn. My mother was fluent in English but didn't quite understand the functions of the parts of the language. When I first learned how to diagram sentences she was enthralled. Suddenly a sentence could be more visually than just words on paper and the placement of the words and syntax began to make sense to her.

I think the issue is actually with the usage of "mood". When mood is used to describe an emotional ~~state~~ quality, it can be followed by "of". When mood is used to describe a state of mind, it isn't (as Zaq said, for apparently no real reason).

amother

Mustard

Wed, Jul 19 2017, 1:21 pm

amother wrote:

I think the issue is actually with the usage of "mood". When mood is used to describe an emotional state, it can be followed by "of". When mood is used to describe a state of mind, it isn't (as Zaq said, for apparently no real reason).

not sure what the difference is between emotional state, and state of mind.

I'm not in the emotional state of doing dishes... sounds just as 'off' to me. Is doing dishes an emotional state?

I'm not in the emotional state to do dishes right now. I'm very distraught , so I might drop something.

amother

Bisque

Wed, Jul 19 2017, 1:47 pm

amother wrote:

You're right, I corrected

From dictionary.com:
Mood:
a distinctive emotional quality or character:
The mood of the music was almost funereal.

a frame of mind disposed or receptive, as to some activity or thing:
I'm not in the mood to see a movie.

suzyq

Wed, Jul 19 2017, 3:50 pm

So funny, as I was reading this thread I just got an email from my husband asking me why they call the groups at our son's camp "bunks."

Having grown up not-frum and not in the NY area, I had the same confusion when I first encountered the use of the word "bunk" to mean a group in a daycamp. I remember questioning a friend about it and she didn't understand why I thought it was weird. But to me, a bunk is a room.