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S/O difference between DL Torani and Chardal
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amother




Bronze


Post  Tue, Aug 08 2017, 7:40 pm
SpottedBanana wrote:
That might actually be more Dati Torani (right-wing DL) than chardal. I have family friends who send to both Rappoport and Magen Avot and Rappoport seems like a much better fit for you. Magen Avot is the closest I have seen in Israeli schools to American yeshivish, not American RWMO.


Can someone explain the difference between the two? I thought they were the same.
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amother




Slategray


Post  Tue, Aug 08 2017, 11:35 pm
I wonder if this thread would be useful.

http://www.imamother.com/forum.....ht=chardal

It's the one I started about five years ago. We never did make aliyah in the end Sad
I wish you better luck getting there than we had.

We had eventually decided on RBS and sending our kids to Rapaport. We visited all divisions of it and really liked it. But it never happened Sad


Dont know if this helps though...
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amother




Tan


Post  Wed, Aug 09 2017, 12:55 am
Chardal, or kavnik, means a worldview that is charedi in all ways except that it gives religious value to the state of Israel
Attitudes to daas Torah and secular studies are essentially charedi. Dress code is not black and white. Often army service is minimal.

Torani dati leumi looks more like right wing MO. Values the state, sees secular studies as essential to religious growth, likely to go to hesder for army.
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yael212









  


Post  Wed, Aug 09 2017, 4:24 am
I am neither Chardal or Torani (just regular old Dati Leumi..although I guess on the liberal side of it. Many of my friends attended Pelech and Hartman in Jerusalem for example)

From what I've observed: Torani is more like RWMO in America. Bnei Akiva branch separated, all grades separate even when very young. stricter dress codes for girls. One of my friends went to enroll her child in a Torani school and was told they don't accept families with televisions in their home. I don't know if this is common or not. Girls won't go to army but do national service instead. Men tend to do hesder, where regular dati leumi are more likely to spend one year and yeshiva or mechina before their service and do the regular 3 years rather than hesder.

Chardal are basically Haredim that are also religious zionists, or religious zionists with black hats, depending on what way you look at it. In my experience most of them are BTs or were dati leumi who became Haredi, which gives them a certain intensity (or zealotry, depending on who you ask). I think they do go to the army, or are more likely to compared to regular haredim
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FranticFrummie









  


Post  Wed, Aug 09 2017, 5:24 am
I'm a plain DL/Religious Zionist. I agree with all the above.
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water_bear88









  


Post  Wed, Aug 09 2017, 5:30 am
I think it's a pretty fine line between them. Chardal do go to hesder, it's just a different setup. Mercaz Harav is the flagship Chardal yeshiva, as I understand it.

DL Torani are often DL who have moved to the right, particularly on tzniut/gender separation issues. A lot of them seem to be into kiruv, unless that's just the ones I've run into living in large, mixed communities rather than small yishuvim in the Shomron. They mostly do hesder, though it's not uncommon for them to drop out of hesder midway through if they're accepted for officers' training. Girls do SL, usually 2 years.

"Regular" DL may do 5 years of hesder, or start it and then stay in the army for the full 3 years instead of going back to yeshiva, or may do mechina and then 3 years service. Girls mostly do SL or Cheil Hachinuch (Education Corps) in the army, though there's been a growing trend towards more going to the army and not necessarily the traditional units.
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SpottedBanana









  


Post  Wed, Aug 09 2017, 9:33 am
Chiming in to say I agree with the descriptions of Dati Torani, but let me describe a little more about chardal in the interest of people who might read this thread to learn more about them. My knowledge comes mostly from a good friend who lived in Kiryat Moshe for many years as well (not chardal though) as from visiting her very chardal neighbors.

In practice they may look like charedim who are Zionist, but they are actually extremely extremely religious Zionist -- e.g. they view going to the army as a mitzva d'oreisa and that's why they go, whereas a regular DL guy might go because it is important to protect Jews and Israel. They don't follow the same rabbanim as the charedim -- they follow Rav Kook ztl and his son ztl, and local rabbanim. They are extremely machmir and much more Kabbalah-oriented than Dati Torani, because that was the hashkafa of Rav Kook.

It is important to point out that this hashkafa basically does not exist in America, just as American yeshivish basically does not exist in Israel with the exception of Magen Avot in RBS (I believe olim are the majority there, not sure though) and maybe Moshav Matityahu. Hope this was helpful.
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amother




Lilac


Post  Wed, Aug 09 2017, 5:43 pm
So I live in Kiryat Moshe, which has a large community of both Chardal and Dati Torani. It took me quite some time to even figure out which one I was (for reference, I grew up Modern Orthodox in the US - both are definitely to the right of that). I consider myself Dati Torani, I'll tell you how I see it.

First of all, most of the info here is on the mark. In addition to that though, here are a few more important points, in my humble opinion:

The level of halachic observance is mostly the same among Chardal and Dati Torani. Both are very serious about halacha (so much so that chareidi friends of ours said that they didn't realize that there were parts of the dati leumi world that kept halacha similar to chareidim). Things like tzniut, separation of genders, mehadrin kashrut , and being makpid in general in all areas of halacha are pretty much the same. Level of religious/judaic studies in school is highly prioritized for both.

In terms of political views, both groups are very similar, in giving halachic value to living in eretz yisrael (including support of the govt in some form or another), army service, etc. Most from both camps will study in hesder at the very least (usually doing the full 5 years), or even going to a yeshiva where they learn for several years and then do army later (e.g. Mitzpe Yericho). Most value some time learning in Yeshiva very highly.

No specific connection to kiruv for either group as one poster mentioned, it was probably just the people she knew, though I'm sure there are people in both camps who do it.

The difference that I see is in world view - chardal are similar to chareidim in that there is value in being insular, wanting to block themselves off from outside influences as much as possible. This is seen in terms of secular education (still existent, but sometimes minimal - often not as highly prioritized as in dati torani circles), extremely minimal/no exposure to secular content (including books, movies, music etc. even if completely clean/appropriate), and similar types of things. The world view of Dati Torani still holds that there is value in secular things (secular studies in school, books, etc) but that it must be clean and appropriate. In actual practice, this difference is quite small - in both groups, the majority don't have televisions, have filtered internet, and are very careful about what outside content comes in. But the attitude towards these things is a significant difference, even if in practice it's quite similar.

In Kiryat Moshe, it is often very hard to tell who is in what camp, and even after getting to know them, I still don't always know. Usually, the schools they send their kids to is the giveaway, though there is significant overlap.

Anyway, that's my opinion. It may also vary from place to place, and further vary based on what percentage of the population is Israeli vs Anglo (e.g. chardal in Ramat Beit Shemesh may not look like chardal in Kiryat Moshe, because Anglos do it differently).
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SpottedBanana









  


Post  Wed, Aug 09 2017, 7:16 pm
amother wrote:
It may also vary from place to place, and further vary based on what percentage of the population is Israeli vs Anglo (e.g. chardal in Ramat Beit Shemesh may not look like chardal in Kiryat Moshe, because Anglos do it differently).


Interesting that in your opinion Anglos in RBS can even be considered chardal. It's such an Israeli concept, I thought it only properly existed in Kiryat Moshe, Elkana and other similar yishuvim which are nothing like RBS. Maybe you're just being polite but to anyone like me who went to Michlalah or another not-DL-not-chareidi institution and struggled with whether to be DL or chareidi, it was important for me to realize that there is no middle ground in Israel. For example, it is either Zionism + secular exposure (DL), Zionism but no secular exposure (chardal), or no Zionism and no secular exposure (chareidi). Yeshivish (secular studies for girls definitely and often for boys too, especially OOT) does not exist except in RBS as I mentioned (and it seems like the schools don't even offer anything like that, I'm just talking about the parents who want it); in other words, IMO they are not "doing chardal differently" -- it is an Anglo bubble, which is wonderful for retirees but terrible for families with children who will not fit in with any segment of Israeli society. The OP of the other thread will hopefully be happily Dati Torani, but this is the post for all those people who wonder why Lakewood-type people stay in Lakewood.

(Btw, I hope to move to Israel and become chareidi. But it will involve kollel forever and zero recreational internet and very little secular education for my future kids, and I'm willing to live with that. Many people aren't.)

/rant about Israeli society and its boxes
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amother




Bronze


Post  Wed, Aug 09 2017, 7:23 pm
Thank you all!!

Like most Americans, I'd have a foot in multiple camps.
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heartinzion









  


Post  Thu, Aug 10 2017, 6:46 am
That was helpful. I thought the 2 were the same and was using the terms interchangeably. Oops.
I now know I'm looking for "torani".
Wink
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SpottedBanana









  


Post  Thu, Aug 10 2017, 7:37 am
heartinzion wrote:
That was helpful. I thought the 2 were the same and was using the terms interchangeably. Oops.
I now know I'm looking for "torani".
Wink


It is confusing because the dress code is similar but the hashkafos are so different -- not usually a problem in Israel, land where the DL don't wear sheitels so as not to look chareidi and the chareidim don't wear long skirts so as not to look DL Laughing
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Health is a Virture









  


Post  Thu, Aug 10 2017, 9:23 am
I was always under the impression was chardal was something Americans invented who wanted to be charedi in theory, but found it too constraining so they invented this thing called chardal, which is modern Yeshivish in America (or some will say out-of-town yeshivish), or you can call it charedi lite, or charedi/listening to da'as Torah, but also putting more emphasis on secular studies (than charedim) and allowing sports (that charedim don't allow). they may serve in the army, but just as a means of parnassah, NOT as the ultimate mesiras nefesh.

daati leumi Torani is daat leumi with heavy emphasis on Torani and leumi (as opposed to regular daati leumi which puts leumi first then daati). daati leumi Torani --- merkaz harav would be the frummest of them. They celebrate yom haatzmut with all fan fare, hallel, etc,they serve in the army because it is a mitzvah---they will learn and do hesder. The learning is shtark and serving in the army is very important/a big mitzvath (some wll push the army off for a number of years until they have learned more)

they see protecting our country as a very big mitzvah and learning Torah is also a very big mitzvah.
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LovesHashem









  


Post  Thu, Aug 10 2017, 12:04 pm
SpottedBanana wrote:
But it will involve kollel forever and zero recreational internet and very little secular education for my future kids, and I'm willing to live with that. Many people aren't.)


I am chareidi, I have internet, there is somewhat of a secular education, and my husband is in no way, shape, or from learning forever
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BadTichelDay









  


Post  Thu, Aug 10 2017, 12:38 pm
@Health is a Virtue, chardal is indeed a very Israeli thing. There are Anglos who are in this sector but I think they are in the minority there if you look at the whole country and not just anglo bubbles. Anglos certainly didn't "invent" it, it developed from the Mercaz HaRav yeshiva. For chardalnikim army service is an important mitzvah, not just a way to earn parnassah. Chareidi lite exists in its own right but is different in hashkafah - they don't have that intense Zionism, live generally in different areas, follow different rabbanim and dress differently. I'm DL middle of the road and I find it hard to define the difference between DL Torani and Chardal. We have quite a few "native Israeli" neighbors who are somehow frummer than we (in a nutshell, wives wear socks and would never have served in the army, unlike me, and men study Torah at least part-time in an organized framework, my dh just at home ) but I really wouldn't know where to sort them.Maybe I'll ask them one day how they define themselves, Chardal or DL Torani, just for fun... or maybe they think that THEY are DL mainstream and we are DL light?? It's all sort of relative and there is a lot of overlap between different DL sectors.
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SpottedBanana









  


Post  Thu, Aug 10 2017, 12:42 pm
LovesHashem wrote:
I am chareidi, I have internet, there is somewhat of a secular education, and my husband is in no way, shape, or from learning forever


What kind of place do you live in? Is it Anglo chareidi (like RBS A or Har Nof), cosmopolitan chareidi (like Petach Tikva or Haifa -- maybe I'm wrong but it seems like these communities are less insular), mainstream intense chareidi (Bnei Brak, Kiryat Sefer, Elad, Ramat Eshkol type), a small yishuv or moshav, or somewhere else? Really curious about this, if you feel comfortable PMing me I'd love to know how you plan to get your kids into high school with a working DH.
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SpottedBanana









  


Post  Thu, Aug 10 2017, 12:45 pm
@BadTichelDay, you said you have a hard time differentiating between DL Torani and chardal. In a nutshell, chardalnikim have much more limited exposure to the secular world and are much more Kabbalah-oriented than DL Torani in their Torah learning. Does that fit with your experience at all?
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water_bear88









  


Post  Thu, Aug 10 2017, 1:14 pm
Another difference that occurred to me- and this has much more to do with relative percentages than any absolute lines- is smartphone ownership. The DL Torani I've met all seem to have smartphones and use WhatsApp, while I regularly see Harav Aviner (whom I would characterize as Chardal) write against owning one. Chardal are largely ok with simple text messaging, as opposed to Charedi who officially are only supposed to use kosher phones.
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Health is a Virture









  


Post  Thu, Aug 10 2017, 1:29 pm
chardak (I believe that is what they call theitmselves, but I could be mistaken) is something different from chardal. Chardak is something that was created after the whole gush katif thing---some daati leumi Torani (many living in the shtachim) were very upset with the government and so they started to be anti-army/government. Merkaz harav is daati leumi Torani. Chardal is an American thing---have only heard this word to be used by Americans. Yes, ask your neighbors what they are---most will say daati leumi I presume. My husband learned in Mevaseret, Merkaz Harav is Daati Leumi, as well as is R' Aviner, R' Cohen, etc.... I am not sure where you are getting your information. I would love if you would ask your neighbors what they consider themselves as.
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water_bear88









  


Post  Thu, Aug 10 2017, 1:42 pm
Health is a Virture wrote:
chardak (I believe that is what they call theitmselves, but I could be mistaken) is something different from chardal. Chardak is something that was created after the whole gush katif thing---some daati leumi Torani (many living in the shtachim) were very upset with the government and so they started to be anti-army/government. Merkaz harav is daati leumi Torani. Chardal is an American thing---have only heard this word to be used by Americans. Yes, ask your neighbors what they are---most will say daati leumi I presume. My husband learned in Mevaseret, Merkaz Harav is Daati Leumi, as well as is R' Aviner, R' Cohen, etc.... I am not sure where you are getting your information. I would love if you would ask your neighbors what they consider themselves as.

I thought Chardak is a pejorative term. I don't know what those from Gush Katif who stopped supporting the state call themselves, but I'd be surprised if it's that.

I think Chardal, DL Torani, and more mainstream or leftwing DL will all call themselves DL because the two basic requirements are (A) shomer Torah umitzvot and (B) supporting the state including the army. The terms we're trying to hash out here are subgroups within DL. It's like how I didn't like any of the options in the "what subgroup of Orthodox are you" a few months ago because I don't care to choose between "RW MO" and LW MO". I'll call myself MO, but I don't care to use a more precise term.
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