Female picture in the main mishpacha magazine this week

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dancingqueen

Tue, Aug 15 2017, 7:27 pm

amother wrote:

I agree with LovesHashem

Since when are those 2 different? A Rav can give a psak on what you should do from a hashkafic standpoint, but it's a psak- listening to the rav is dioraysa, so it boils down to the fact that if you don't listen it's an issur either way.

Not seeing the "huge" difference. I'm israeli, I hear in the USA it's not as important to respect rabanim and gedolei yisroel. Not sure if that is connected, but just throwing that out there.

So in this thread alone not printing pictures of women and girls above age 6 (and that a female child of 6 or in some communities 3, must cover up because men find her s-xually attractive blows my mind but let's leave that) went from a policy decision to keep the most sensitive RW groups happy but not Halacha, to something which is not only Halacha but a dioraisa. So I guess anyone with a Facebook or instagram account is over a dioraisa?

Ima_Shelli

Tue, Aug 15 2017, 9:05 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

Exactly. I still haven't heard the name of a single rav who paskened that there is anything wrong with this, other than an anonymous one. I am still waiting for a discussion of why this is against halacha, in the frum publications or elsewhere.

PinkFridge

Tue, Aug 15 2017, 9:52 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

According to my Rav- most mainstream rabanim based on the Chazon Ish, Chofetz Chaim, etc, etc- women shouldn't be in the public eye. Period. If you don't like the psak, get a different Rav. Yes it's hard to post this under my username but I don't care.

if you don't follow gdolei hador that's another story. Why are there so many threads lately about bashing people who are more machmir, like the fact that I'm more machmir is "unnecessary". Why are you asking me for research. I'm telling you that you can speak to any local charieidi rav the follows the majority of gedolei hador and you can have a frank chat for 3 hours over it rather than bashing someone on the internet who frankly trusts her own Rav and has other things to think about that pictures in magazines so honestly doesn't care that much about the fact that you can't understand me viewpoint.

A lot of people hold this, it's in the magazines' bottom line interest to cater to the stricter opinions, and I'm not sure if/how things will change.

Ima_Shelli

Tue, Aug 15 2017, 11:15 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

A lot of people hold this, it's in the magazines' bottom line interest to cater to the stricter opinions, and I'm not sure if/how things will change.

Again, which rabbanim hold this?

Ima_Shelli

Tue, Aug 15 2017, 11:21 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

A lot of people hold this, it's in the magazines' bottom line interest to cater to the stricter opinions, and I'm not sure if/how things will change.

A lot of people do NOT hold this and in fact view the trend as being potentially offensive at worst and at the least as having downsides.

I suggest that those who do not like this trend consider making the magazines aware of this fact so that it "becomes in the magazines' bottom line interest to cater to the stricter opinions" about including women's holy and appropriate images.

I do not currently subscribe to any frum publications for this reason. I suspect that I'm not the only one who does not. I also won't bring a children's book I to my home if it excludes mommies, since I do not think it's consistent with the chinuch I want to give my children.

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 2:36 am

LovesHashem wrote:

In a nutshell-this is what I wanted to add too. I'm sorry if you don't think you need to strive to keep sensitivities, most mainstream poskim believe you need to do so, and you need to work on for real, like deep down inner work till you get there. Your spirituality is not a joke, it's to be played around with like "Ok, I'm here and I'm good". There's ALWAYS more to work towards and more sensitivites to work towards. There's no such thing as saying "that's not for me". Unless you don't follow the same gedolei hador that I do- the mainstream chareidi ones.

And here you have it. Mainstream in general is not charedi. If you mean mainstream charedi rabbis, then thats fine, but mainstream in general really doesnt mean anything as there are so many different types of frum jews out there.

And here is a news flash for you, no, not everyone follows the charedi gedolei hador. If they are not charedi then those rabbanim are not poskim for those people.

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 2:39 am

LovesHashem wrote:

I said most mainstream poskim-not ALL. So it's a sensitivity that we all need to strive to keep. I'm stikk confused as to eveyone's problem

We all have to strive to not have women or small girls in magazines? I think not. That is not halacha anywhere. That is a chumra. And not everyone lives with chumrot.

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 3:06 am

LovesHashem wrote:

The Chazon Ish paskens that a female is considered a woman once her phsyicial features appear feminine. That is when she can't show ervah, and he paskens that it is the age of 6.

The rabanim of our generation have said it's inappropriate to post pictures of women publicly, and based on the above consider a girl to be a woman at the age of six. Most mainstream chareidi poskim and gedolim pasken this. I forgot to ask if this is the halacha, but it sounds like it is halacha. I can ask him again for a definitive answer if you guys truly need to know.

Im sorry but those rabbanim are saying that girls of 6 are already "a woman once her physical features appear feminine"? Im sorry, but what 6 year old do you know has breasts or hips or any feminine features? That is so wrong. And that is why in that world girls are 2exualized before they are old enough to even know what breasts or hips are. Rolling Eyes

LovesHashem

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 3:20 am

dancingqueen wrote:

I am not going to say this again. In every post I have mentioned this is the chareidi mainstream veiw. If you are not following chareidi mainstream view than I have no answer for you. Don't yell at me that you don't do this etc cuz I have mentioned what someone with my hashkafah would do.

IF YOU DO NO AGREE WITH MY HASHKAFAH OR IF THE MISHPACHA'S THERE IS NOTHING TO TALK ABOUT

Gosh I feel like a broken record lol. We're going in circles. If you have your own rabanim and hashkafah fantastic! Shkoach! Baruch Hashem!!! but I'm not telling you that your hashkafah is flawed so don't tell me mine or the mishpacha is either. (Again I have only mentioned according to a chareidi mainstream Rav it is wrong but if you don't fit into that category why should that bother you?)

I'm going to say something legendary here. I don't even think Mishpacha is all of that frum in any case. I disagree with many different ways they write things. For example they had an article about 6-12 months ago about women learning to take time off for themselves and included a source for this in a big sefer written by a big Rav (no I cannot remember which one, if you take offense to that I honestly don't care anymore) that stated a woman must make time for herself for her own needs. But it failed to mention that the sentence in the sefer ended with a comma and continued "But if she takes a fingerlength ( finger or hair somethibg.... I may be wrong about the exact wording of that word) extra time to her self that is not needed she will be punished severly.

Aha.... Um that was not what the article said. Hmmmmmm.... I wonder why.

In any case. On a last note I recently mentioned this at a writers group where many woman agreed with my logic.

there's 60 paths to the torah. When you take 60 hashkafos with different views, values, and chumros and expect them to share 5 magazines there's GOING TO BE ISSUES WITH EVERYTHING. The magaZines get hate mail both ways it's too strict. It's too open. It's too scary. I refuse to buy it.... It's too boring.... Etc.

If they listened to everything it would be a mess. Instead they have their rabinical board and hashkafah and stick to that. Respect the fact that they follow their daas torah. And everyone just has to cater towards it. There is no other way to do this. If they listened to every complaint and I'm sure every one is valid, it would be pandemonium. They can't have 50 hashkafos.

I have nothing more to say. Not repeating myself again. Again I have mentioned if you want more information on a chumrah ask any local chareidi Rav. If that's not your hashkafah well I can't explain my logic of you don't believe it's correct and are closed to hearing about others paths.

Have a good day. Very Happy

Last edited by LovesHashem on Wed, Aug 16 2017, 3:29 am; edited 1 time in total

LovesHashem

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 3:22 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Don't tell that to me. I am staying what chareidi mainstream rabbis go by.. Go argue with chazon ish and your local rabbi. Just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean its not a valid way to serve Hashem

LovesHashem

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 3:25 am

Ima_Shelli wrote:

I suggest that those who do not like this trend consider making the magazines aware of this fact so that it "becomes in the magazines' bottom line interest to cater to the stricter opinions" about including women's holy and appropriate images.

See above post. I think they need to follow their rabbis. They can't cater to everyone.

salt

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 3:53 am

I love how everyone gets so heated.
I have to admit I have only read page 1,2 and then skipped to the last page.
I only have to add, that those people who follow the charedi gedolim, whoever they may be, and believe that photos of females should not appear in magazines, should probably also be learning Torah and not reading magazines.

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 3:58 am

LovesHashem wrote:

I just want to point out to you that in your first post you did NOT say charedi mainstream, you just said mainstream.

LovesHashem

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 4:39 am

salt- people need to rewind and relax. I don't see anything wrong with that. Especially in my case where I do not read non jewish literature, and I'm an avid reader and writer-this is my weekly fresh air to continue existing.

shabbatiscoming- I see we often clash about these types of things Wink

Good to see you here too. In any case, if I did not mention that I am sorry-it was a mistake. I made a mistake. I suppose I assumed if we were discussing the mishpacha we were talking about the mainstream rabanim they follow. In any case, I am sorry. That is what I meant.

imasoftov

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 4:47 am

LovesHashem wrote:

there's 60 paths to the torah

Didn't it used to be 70? But I guess things are stricter now ...

LovesHashem

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 5:59 am

Nitpicking lol. Could be seventy. I never remember the number

PinkFridge

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 8:29 am

Ima_Shelli wrote:

Again, which rabbanim hold this?

I'll tell you the truth. I can't name names, I've just heard that since there is a view that is held by a sufficiently significant demographic of the readership, it is perceived as being more inclusive to cater to the most machmir view and best for the bottom line.

Personally, this isn't enough for me to cancel any subscriptions till they start printing pictures. But I wouldn't cancel my subscriptions if they started either.

Ima_Shelli

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 9:26 am

PinkFridge wrote:

BINGO!

Thank you for admitting this. You can't name names because there are no names!
This is not psak, this is not halacha, this is catering to a significant demographic of the readership who have adopted this view. Howeverr, I still can't figure out where this view actually came from. It is not based on responsa, it is not based on a kol koreh from gedolim, I really am not sure where it originated as it was certainly not the 'mainstream chareidi' view twenty-five years ago, at least not the American one (Feldheim, Artscoll, Jewish Observer, etc. did not subscribe to this view and there was no cry to ban them because they printed pictures of women).

I keep seeing posters say that this is following the psak of all of the gedolim.
I have never seen evidence to back up the fact that this is the psak of all the gedolim.
If it is, I am happy to follow it, but I really haven't seen any evidence that that's actually the case.

dancingqueen

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 10:01 am

Ima_Shelli wrote:

Especially since LovesHashem has not provided even one source for this practice except to tell us that it is the mainstream chareidi view. I can't ask my chareidi rav as she suggested since I do not have a chareidi rav.

And why does not printing pictures of girls and women bother me if we are not chareidi? Because as you say mishapacha doesn't sound like an extremely RW paper, it's mainstream. And I have dds. I don't like this message that they don't deserve to be seen, and I see that message becoming more and more prominent in all parts of orthodoxy when it started as a fringe opinion.

watergirl

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 10:10 am

dancingqueen wrote:

Dont let her get to you. She asked her rav and "forgot" to ask him if its halacha. Its not halacha. Regardless - I dont need her or her rav to tell me what I already know. She and other amothers feel this way, we feel another way. This whole post is about one publication - Mishpacha - and you are spot on. Its mainstream, not only charedi.

Regardless, I always roll my eyes when this argument goes on, when I relate it to other times when its not only sanctioned, but mandatory to provide pictues of women. Shidduch resumes require them. And we all know what happens with those. Pictures of young women in the prime of their lives, layed out on the table like baseball cards, gawked at and traded and passed around with no kavod at all. And somehow this is ok. The same rabbis who wont touch a magazine if there is a photo of a dead rebbitzen on the inside pages act as shaddchanim or are fathers of boys and have these girls pictures. What a double standard.

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