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-> Interesting Discussions
MitzadSheini
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 Mon, Aug 28 2017, 11:59 pm
http://haemtza.blogspot.com.au.....qXuc+(Emes+Ve-Emunah)&m=1
What do you think of this article?
Summary - she only got rabbinic approval.about 10 years after the movement began. She did not wait for approval from 'daas torah' (itself an extremely modern concept) , but rather saw a need and acted on it. A fascinating read.
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tichellady
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Tue, Aug 29 2017, 12:23 am
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Is not surprising or upsetting to me but I understand how this could troubling for some people to hear
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mommy3b2c
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Tue, Aug 29 2017, 12:28 am
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I'm pretty sure I knew that she had a lot of resistance at the beginning.
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studying_torah
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Tue, Aug 29 2017, 1:35 am
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I learned all of this too as a young girl
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amother
Tangerine
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Tue, Aug 29 2017, 1:42 am
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Fyi, her diary was recently rediscovered and is being translated into English. I think that will shed a lot more insight on who she really was. (It is not being done by a publisher who will edit and whitewash.)
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martina
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Tue, Aug 29 2017, 4:52 am
The idea to turn her friday night tze'na ure'na sessions into a real educational program was something she was toying with but knew there might be problems with it.
It was a shabbos chanukka drasha by a rav flesch in vienna, where she fled to during ww1, where se started thinking that daas torah could premit it. He spoke on the passuk עת לעשות לה' הפרו תורתך (there's a time to act and change one thing of torah in order to save the rest of the torah - like when they wrote down mishna and gemara which essentially is forbidden (to write down oral law))
And she discussed it with him after, if the idea of educating girls falls under that category. He encouraged her to do it and yes, to get support from daas torah.
True there was much resistance. As the above possuk implies it was a change in a system that had worked until now. But please let us not go turn our beloved mother of education, sarah shenirer into some feminist rebellion. She did leshem shamayim what she felt she could and while she had resistance she had the approval from day one that she should do it, however controversial it may seem. Again, because in a time of danger one may change what is usually acceptable in torah.
ETA: I am not trying to say that education for girls isnt good. I will be the first to champion it and always have and still strive to educate myself more and more to this day because I think knowledge and education is the basis of a person. I am just laying out the historical facts to the founding of beis yaakov how it actually was.
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amother
Taupe
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Tue, Aug 29 2017, 5:02 am
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Fine, but the facts are that she saw a need to change how women were educated and she did it without rabbinic support or approval. A tepid second hand "mazel ubrocha" from the Belzer Rebbe isn't exactly the backing of daas Torah.
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martina
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Tue, Aug 29 2017, 5:05 am
| amother wrote: | | Fine, but the facts are that she saw a need to change how women were educated and she did it without rabbinic support or approval. A tepid second hand "mazel ubrocha" from the Belzer Rebbe isn't exactly the backing of daas Torah. |
She had it from rav flesch to begin with. And while he wasnt gadol hador or famous, he was still daas torah. She knew she was doing something daring yet not against the torah. THAT is what daas torah means. It doesnt mean getting a letter from a major gadol. It knows that what you are doing is what the torah permits.
Afterwards comes the issue of gaining support from major rabbonim and gedolim in order to have the people go along with it. That is a seperate issue.
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amother
Taupe
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Tue, Aug 29 2017, 5:12 am
| martina wrote: | She had it from rav flesch to begin with. And while he wasnt gadol hador or famous, he was still daas torah. She knew she was doing something daring yet not against the torah. THAT is what daas torah means. It doesnt mean getting a letter from a major gadol. It knows that what you are doing is what the torah permits.
Afterwards comes the issue of gaining support from major rabbonim and gedolim in order to have the people go along with it. That is a seperate issue. |
I don't think that contemporary Bais Yaakov girls are being taught to do daring things as long as they believe the Torah allows it. They are being taught to ask a gadol before making major decisions, and certainly before changing the way Jews have lived for centuries.
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Iymnok
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Tue, Aug 29 2017, 5:12 am
Her brother was her first big opposition. He insisted she talk to he's Rebbe, the Gerrer Rebbe. He gave her a brocha for success.
No idea how far she was along when this happened.
She got full support at the Kenissia Gedola from the Litvish and chassidish gedolim there.
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martina
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Tue, Aug 29 2017, 5:25 am
| amother wrote: | | I don't think that contemporary Bais Yaakov girls are being taught to do daring things as long as they believe the Torah allows it. They are being taught to ask a gadol before making major decisions, and certainly before changing the way Jews have lived for centuries. |
No bais yaakov girl today needs to save the world like she did....
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amother
Taupe
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Tue, Aug 29 2017, 6:02 am
| martina wrote: | | No bais yaakov girl today needs to save the world like she did.... |
Because life's perfect as is?
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martina
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Tue, Aug 29 2017, 6:09 am
| amother wrote: | | Because life's perfect as is? |
As my father says "we need a sara shenirer of our generation"
What I was implying earlier is that in day to day life we dont need to do daring controversial things, that is why it is not something that needs to be taught. But yes, when you see an issue and you have a solution that is torah true - be a champion!
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watergirl
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Tue, Aug 29 2017, 7:56 am
| martina wrote: | | No bais yaakov girl today needs to save the world like she did.... |
The world, especially the frum womens world does indeed need to he saved. Every time I see a new chumra turn into an accepted norm (with a fictitious claim that this is how it always was!) I wonder how this is happening.
I can just imagine if Sarah Shenirer never existed and never created BY, how it would never happen today.
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martina
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Tue, Aug 29 2017, 8:15 am
| watergirl wrote: | The world, especially the frum womens world does indeed need to he saved. Every time I see a new chumra turn into an accepted norm (with a fictitious claim that this is how it always was!) I wonder how this is happening.
I can just imagine if Sarah Shenirer never existed and never created BY, how it would never happen today. |
Read my post after
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leah233
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Tue, Aug 29 2017, 8:39 am
The article is bending the truth about what is told to the Bais Yaakov crowd. The versions I always saw in books and articles about Bais Yaakov don't say that before S.S. started Bais Yaakov she went running around to all the gedolim for their approval. From what I was always told she only asked and got approval from the Belzer Rebbe at first. As the movement grew she got more approvals. Perhaps they don't stress she got some approvals later but they don't claim she didn't do it until she got them either. (very likely the authors don't know when exactly the approvals were given so they just assume it was beforehand)Almost every article says that there was opposition to it.
The article also implies that those who didn't give support beforehand (because they weren't asked) opposed the idea. That is also bending the truth.
Last edited by leah233 on Tue, Aug 29 2017, 9:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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leah233
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Tue, Aug 29 2017, 8:42 am
| watergirl wrote: | | The world, especially the frum womens world does indeed need to he saved. Every time I see a new chumra turn into an accepted norm (with a fictitious claim that this is how it always was!) I wonder how this is happening. |
Can you give a few recent examples of new chumras that turned into an accepted norm with a fictitious claim that this is how it always was?
Be specific.
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amother
Saddlebrown
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Tue, Aug 29 2017, 8:55 am
| leah233 wrote: | Can you give a few recent examples of new chumras that turned into an accepted norm with a fictitious claim that this is how it always was?
Be specific. |
I guess she's going to say photos.
But, aside from that, usually things that imas on here call chumros are clearly brought down in shulchan aruch or mishna berura. It's always mind boggling to me how everyone accepts the chafetz chaim's explanations hands down when it comes to shimiras halashon, but not when it comes to other halachos. I understand there might be other sources to go according to in those cases though to make fun of those who follow his direction is rather presumptious.
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watergirl
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Tue, Aug 29 2017, 9:11 am
| leah233 wrote: | Can you give a few recent examples of new chumras that turned into an accepted norm with a fictitious claim that this is how it always was?
Be specific. |
Yes, photos. Also requiring a mechitza for non davening times, such as public speeches and the like. Skirts hitting 4 inches below the knee. There are more. And amother below, if youre going to follow me from thread to thread, do it as yourself. Anon gets old.
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amother
Goldenrod
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Tue, Aug 29 2017, 9:18 am
Dr. Ginsparg Klein came to speak in my community. She is brilliant, and I'd love to have a conversation with her on historical revisionism and the chareidi world.
(I'm the one who posted on the previous bread about this regarding the legitimacy of MO.)
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