the real truth about Sarah Shenirer & the start of BY

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The real truth about Sarah Shenirer & the start of BY

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watergirl

Tue, Aug 29 2017, 9:19 am

amother wrote:

Dr. Ginsparg Klein came to speak in my community. She is brilliant, and I'd love to have a conversation with her on historical revisionism and the chareidi world.
(I'm the one who posted on the previous bread about this regarding the legitimacy of MO.)

She is beyond brilliant. She, for those who dont know, has a doctorate in Jewish history and her thesis was on Sarah Shenirer and the BY movement.

amother

Goldenrod

Tue, Aug 29 2017, 9:20 am

leah233 wrote:

Can you give a few recent examples of new chumras that turned into an accepted norm with a fictitious claim that this is how it always was?

Be specific.

The verbal claim that this is how it always was may not always be there, but the reaction towards not following it is often extreme and intense, implying that there is no other valid way, and everyone who doesn't follow it is wrong.

sleepybeauty

Tue, Aug 29 2017, 10:05 am

leah233 wrote:

Can you give a few recent examples of new chumras that turned into an accepted norm with a fictitious claim that this is how it always was?

Be specific.

Black hats.

mommy3b2c

Tue, Aug 29 2017, 10:20 am

sleepybeauty wrote:

Black hats.

Do people really claim black hats were always around?

I've never heard that. I have heard it about shtreimels. (Which I believe were actually worn by the polish nobility)

Ima_Shelli

Tue, Aug 29 2017, 10:24 am

leah233 wrote:

Can you give a few recent examples of new chumras that turned into an accepted norm with a fictitious claim that this is how it always was?

Be specific.

Pictures of women.
I will say it again. Pcitures of women.
Sorry, maybe I'm beating a dead horse here but I'll say it again until I see some actual change.
Pictures of women.

chestnut

Tue, Aug 29 2017, 10:26 am

Leah - separate seating outside of shul davening.

amother

Gray

Tue, Aug 29 2017, 10:27 am

mommy3b2c wrote:

Do people really claim black hats were always around?

I've never heard that. I have heard it about shtreimels.

I never met anyone who thinks Moshe Rabbainu wore a shtreimel. I'm nominally chasidish.

sleepybeauty

Tue, Aug 29 2017, 10:39 am

mommy3b2c wrote:

Do people really claim black hats were always around?

I've never heard that. I have heard it about shtreimels. (Which I believe were actually worn by the polish nobility)

People think they've been around for a lot longer than they actually have.

leah233

Tue, Aug 29 2017, 10:41 am

Pictures themselves are too recent for anyone to make any claims about how things "always were" in regard to them.

I don't think it is correct that mixed seating out of shul was always acceptable. The following is copied and pasted from a YU oriented blog The Sefer Chassidim states that one cannot recite “shehasimcha bemeono” in Birchat Hamazon where men and women sit together because there is no real rejoicing. The Maharshal strongly endorses this position, as does the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch and the Chofetz Chaim in Geder Olam.

Even if I'm incorrect about the above these issues aren't so severe that they warrant a comment like The world, especially the frum womens world does indeed need to he saved. which my original post responded to.

watergirl

Tue, Aug 29 2017, 10:46 am

leah233 wrote:

You are entitled to your opinion.

amother

Goldenrod

Tue, Aug 29 2017, 11:08 am

Rebbetzin Henkin is to me, somewhat similar to sarah Schneirer. Her work is extremely important and extremely under appreciated in the chareidi world. Anyone I discuss this with- in the very yeshivish world - agree there is a problem but don't have a realistic proposal for how to fix it.

dancingqueen

Tue, Aug 29 2017, 11:21 am

martina wrote:

The idea to turn her friday night tze'na ure'na sessions into a real educational program was something she was toying with but knew there might be problems with it.
It was a shabbos chanukka drasha by a rav flesch in vienna, where she fled to during ww1, where se started thinking that daas torah could premit it. He spoke on the passuk עת לעשות לה' הפרו תורתך (there's a time to act and change one thing of torah in order to save the rest of the torah - like when they wrote down mishna and gemara which essentially is forbidden (to write down oral law))
And she discussed it with him after, if the idea of educating girls falls under that category. He encouraged her to do it and yes, to get support from daas torah.
True there was much resistance. As the above possuk implies it was a change in a system that had worked until now. But please let us not go turn our beloved mother of education, sarah shenirer into some feminist rebellion. She did leshem shamayim what she felt she could and while she had resistance she had the approval from day one that she should do it, however controversial it may seem. Again, because in a time of danger one may change what is usually acceptable in torah.

ETA: I am not trying to say that education for girls isnt good. I will be the first to champion it and always have and still strive to educate myself more and more to this day because I think knowledge and education is the basis of a person. I am just laying out the historical facts to the founding of beis yaakov how it actually was.

Of course she was a feminist hero. Marriam Websters definition of feminism is "organized activity in support of women's rights and interests." I think we can all agree that she made girls lives better in her generation and ours.

LittleDucky

Tue, Aug 29 2017, 11:28 am

leah233 wrote:

The article is bending the truth about what is told to the Bais Yaakov crowd. The versions I always saw in books and articles about Bais Yaakov don't say that before S.S. started Bais Yaakov she went running around to all the gedolim for their approval. From what I was always told she only asked and got approval from the Belzer Rebbe at first. As the movement grew she got more approvals. Perhaps they don't stress she got some approvals later but they don't claim she didn't do it until she got them either. (very likely the authors don't know when exactly the approvals were given so they just assume it was beforehand)Almost every article says that there was opposition to it.

The article also implies that those who didn't give support beforehand (because they weren't asked) opposed the idea. That is also bending the truth.

Actually open up "the Bais Yakkov Cookbook" page 16, bottom left column.
" she began petitioning gedolei Yisroel, some of whom were very sympathetic and encouraging. Armed with the brachos of Rav Yissocher Dov, the Belzer Rebbe, the Chofetz Chaim, the Gerer Rebbe, the Imrei Emes she forged ahead....her dream began to materialize."

How about historical revisionism? She started before she even spoke to some of these Gedolim.
"Carry Me in Your Heart" only says she got a "Mazel Ubracha" from the Belzer Rebbe and that was because her brother strongly encouraged it....

hotzenplotz

Tue, Aug 29 2017, 11:39 am

to amother:

A "mazel ubrecho" from the Belzer Rebbe IS daas Torah.

Please back up your word of choice "tepid"???!!?

Chayalle

Tue, Aug 29 2017, 11:58 am

sleepybeauty wrote:

Black hats.

And white shirts. And suits. Which men owned these in the shtetl?

And beards.

My grandfather A"H used to give haircuts and shaves when he learned in the Vishive yeshiva as a bachur. He used the money to buy a 2nd hand suit.

According to my grandfather, there were hardly any bachurim in the yeshiva who were not clean-shaven.

For those who don't know, the Vishive yeshiva was basically for Visnitz Chassidim (like my grandfather was). The Rosh Yeshiva was, I believe, the brother of the Visnitz Rebbe (at that time).

PinkFridge

Tue, Aug 29 2017, 12:24 pm

Chayalle wrote:

And white shirts. And suits. Which men owned these in the shtetl?
).

I look at pictures from 25, 30 years ago. The beards were black and the suits were gray Wink

leah233

Tue, Aug 29 2017, 12:39 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

I look at pictures from 25, 30 years ago. The beards were black and the suits were gray Wink

Most people would say there were no beards back then...

Anyway this change isn't a result of people adopting a new chumra and being told this is how it always was.It also mirrors the suit styles of secular society .

Look at color pictures of cabinets meeting by Presidents Carter or Ford. You can find them wearing all type of color suits. Even green or root beer color. Look at a presidential cabinet meeting today. Whoever is wearing a suit is wearing one that would fit into a Yeshiva.

PinkFridge

Tue, Aug 29 2017, 12:45 pm

leah233 wrote:

And yeshiva bochrim wore lighter color hats, especially in Shanghai, because of the heat. But they wore hats and jackets. That's what was considered fitting for a yeshiva student.

amother

Taupe

Tue, Aug 29 2017, 1:39 pm

hotzenplotz wrote:

to amother:

A "mazel ubrecho" from the Belzer Rebbe IS daas Torah.

Please back up your word of choice "tepid"???!!?

A full haskama is, I think this is an idea whose time has come and I'll send my daughters, or at the very least say publicly that I support your plans.

leah233

Tue, Aug 29 2017, 1:55 pm

amother wrote:

A full haskama is, I think this is an idea whose time has come and I'll send my daughters, or at the very least say publicly that I support your plans.

At that point in time the school was so small and was dealing with so few students they probably weren't looking for public endorsements. It was only when it got larger that they needed and got them.

Assuming he actually had daughters of school age they still probably would have been better off growing up in his house then being sent off to Cracow. There wasn't any Bais Yaakov in Belz that he refused to send his daughters to.

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