the real truth about Sarah Shenirer & the start of BY

amother

Goldenrod

Tue, Aug 29 2017, 2:22 pm

leah233 wrote:

At that point in time the school was so small and was dealing with so few students they probably weren't looking for public endorsements. It was only when it got larger that they needed and got them.

Assuming he actually had daughters of school age they still probably would have been better off growing up in his house then being sent off to Cracow. There wasn't any Bais Yaakov in Belz that he refused to send his daughters to.

Im following and think that you must understand the point. Are you just being argumentative? mazel ubracha is not much.

amother

Taupe

Tue, Aug 29 2017, 2:31 pm

leah233 wrote:

The Belzer Rebbe was an outspoken, active and influential leader in many areas. He took public stands on a number of issues, but not this one.

leah233

Tue, Aug 29 2017, 2:38 pm

amother wrote:

Im following and think that you must understand the point. Are you just being argumentative? mazel ubracha is not much.

For my last post on this thread I'll just say that Sorah Schenirer herself did not consider it to be "not much". From her dairy quoted in the original article:

When I arrived in Marienbad, I and my brother went immediately to the Belzer Rav. My brother, who was a ben bayis there, wrote in his kvittel: “She wants to educate Jewish daughters in the Jewish derech,” and I heard the answer from the tzaddik’s holy mouth myself: Bracha v’hatzlacha. The words were like the most expensive balsam oil, instilling fresh courage in my limbs. The blessing from the great tzaddik gave me the best hope that my strivings would be fulfilled.

amother

Coffee

Tue, Aug 29 2017, 7:41 pm

MitzadSheini wrote:

http://haemtza.blogspot.com.au/2017/08/grass-roots-changes-in-tradition.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed:+blogspot/iqXuc+(Emes+Ve-Emunah)&m=1

What do you think of this article?

Summary - she only got rabbinic approval.about 10 years after the movement began. She did not wait for approval from 'daas torah' (itself an extremely modern concept) , but rather saw a need and acted on it. A fascinating read.

Could you kindly tell me which community/culture produces this online newsletter?

doesn't seem like ultra-orthodox or even orthodox and also not MO.

(though in every community there are always the select few who speak against their community's ways)

I started reading it, stopped in my tracks, and closed it.

In my opinion, I feel it is not for us to start debating and doubting the ways and doings of Sarah Schenirer a'h.
Much harm can come from doing so.
And especially not to base arguments/debates on what you read in this newsletter!!!

The whole newsletter (it's enough what I did read, and I regret reading) oozes feminism against the Torah way, and is demeaning of our Rabbonim and daas Torah.

Please note: I am not in any way referring to those on I/m who who have leanings to feminism. I/M site is comprised of Jewish orthodox women.

I am ONLY referring to the the author of the article in this newsletter. The fact that it starts with - the author is not afraid to openly voice her opinions in any place (or something along
those words) already shows where her leanings are.

One thing we know for sure - only good for our daughters came out of Sarah Schenirer's a'h pioneering and hard work.

May Sarah Schenirer be a melitzah yosher for all Klal Yisrael.

watergirl

Tue, Aug 29 2017, 8:00 pm

amother wrote:

I know both the author of the blog (Harry Maryles) and the author who he refers to (Dr. Leslie Klein) very well for over 20 years. They are not only very very frum, but Dr. klein is the dean at Maalot in Baltimore. I promise you, she knows her stuff. And she is VERY frum. Her leanings are with the truth, and not the white washed version. Not what you've maybe been told. Ex) She published an article showing a picture of an early BY class, which has been doctored to look different. She shows the original photo as well as proof. The original hangs in BY of Baltimore. Her message is that we cant change history to make it fit with how we want to see it. I'll try to find the article.

Also - how is she speaking against the community's ways?

If it wasnt against the rules of the site, I'd screen shot your post to show her for her response; but I also know that she'd just roll her eyes.

amother

Saddlebrown

Tue, Aug 29 2017, 9:30 pm

Only just had a chance to read the original article referenced in the first post and I honestly don't understand her point, aside from some veiled reference at the end regarding Yeshivish communities.

Coming from a yeshivish background, we were always told that there was much opposition to her starting the BY Movement. Never learned it any other way.

Aside, from that - she came from a Belzer family, why on earth wouldn't the blessings from the Rav of her own chassidus be enough to propel her forward, whichever generation she would be coming from?

Do you think that a chassidsh woman nowadays would need approval from Rabbanim accross the board before embarking on a mission? No, Da'as Torah refers to following your own Rav.

This is no different to the way Daas Torah is considered nowadays.

watergirl

Tue, Aug 29 2017, 9:34 pm

amother wrote:

When you have time, read this. Its the article that I believe Harry Maryles is referring to, by Dr. Klein.

http://www.thelehrhaus.com/sch.....-fact

amother

Saddlebrown

Tue, Aug 29 2017, 9:40 pm

watergirl wrote:

When you have time, read this. Its the article that I believe Harry Maryles is referring to, by Dr. Klein.

http://www.thelehrhaus.com/sch.....-fact

That's the article I just read.

I'm not sure why some people have changed the details, for all I know it was just an error on their part. It definitely has nothing to do with trying to show that one shouldn't make change without daas Torah though, because as I said, daas Torah for her is her Rav, the Belzer Rebbe.

The extensive biography 'Carry me in your heart', is circulated widely in our circles and that includes all the true facts. I don't believe anyone is trying to purposely hide anything.

gamanit

Tue, Aug 29 2017, 10:09 pm

The way I learnt it was that R' Samson Rafael Hirsh opened girls schools in Germany. For some reason the concept never spread. Sarah Schenirer had heard about it and was inspired to open a school to teach the girls of her community and perhaps other communities as well. The day she had this inspiration she spoke to a friend/neighbor of hers who agreed that it's a great idea and said to start with his two daughters which she did. I always learnt that the haskamos came later.

chestnut

Tue, Aug 29 2017, 10:37 pm

You're right and she actually went with her family. I stand corrected.
The facts about a chassidishe single girl on her 20s - early 30s being allowed to go to a MO shul, listen to the speeches there, and even attend lectures at the university, still stand. Very "unorthodox" chassidishe girl, indeed.

During World War I, Schenirer and her family fled from Poland to Vienna.[5] While there, she became influenced by Rabbi Flesch,[2] a disciple of Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch, and Modern Orthodox Judaism.[6] His sermons emphasized the role of women throughout Jewish history, which inspired Schenirer.[2]

Schenirer occasionally attended lectures at the university, where she befriended young Jews who were in a campus program called Ruth, where she observed them lighting candles on the Sabbath, in violation of halakha. She perceived from this the need for better Jewish education.[3]

amother

Coffee

Wed, Aug 30 2017, 2:06 am

watergirl wrote:

I just hope she remembers to roll her eyes back down again so they don't stay stuck, c'v.

If she is such an educated and frum person like you say, she won't roll her eyes at my post, b/c I'm sure she knows that every writer gets letters questioning their writing, but she might/will find the time to answer my letter and perhaps explain more at length, like most writers do.

I just read her article until the part where she speaks in quite a derogatory manner about chareidi people running for daas Torah before they do anything, opposed to, as she claims, what Sarah Schenirer did.
And I stopped reading.

B/c I was brought up, that if one has a question on anything to do with Yiddishkeit that one is in a quandary about, or one has a sheiloh halacha then one consults a Rav/Dayan/Posek, or the question in Yiddishkeit one can also ask a Rebbetzin and she will direct you if you need to ask a Rav.

So I just cannot read articles that say the opposite or ridicule it.

That is how I lead my Torah life.

And even so, I will not question how Sarah Schenirer chose to start the huge mitzvah of setting up Torah education for Jewish girls.
I wasn't there when she did it and did not get a first hand view so I can't say my opinion.
It's just a shame the Mrs. Pearl Benisch a'h and Rebbetzin Judith Gruenfeld a'h who were talmidos of Sarah Schenirer aren't alive anymore to tell us in first person how she handled her fiery and admirable goal of setting up Torah education for girls - incl. the part of the Rabbonim.