It seems more and more are going OTD

Raisin

Thu, Aug 31 2017, 3:52 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

2. and 3. aren't as nohayah in Israel, at least in some place. People live without smrtphones, schools are way cheaper, being 100 dollars a month or less, and if you live out of this really big cities you can get really cheap housings....

If you don't have parents who can put a downpayment on a house, and you need to live in a more expensive area due to jobs, housing is a real struggle in Israel. And israelis often tell me how high stress life in general is in Israel. No sunday, so no day off.

But there are other issues in Israel that don't exist in the USA. No middle ground...very narrow chareidi box.

amother

Cobalt

Thu, Aug 31 2017, 3:53 pm

Maya wrote:

This.
And this too, for the poster who said that Chassidish people are just trying to mimic the lifestyle of those in Europe before the war. Chassidish culture today is way more restrictive than it was even 20-30 years ago, and probably not comparable to prewar life in many many ways.

I'm also agreeing with those who claim that way more people went OTD in prewar Europe than do now.

I agree there needs to be some change in the system. The thing is though that if more people were going OTD in pre-war Europe when things were less restrictive then you can't necessarily blame the current restrictiveness for causing it...

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Aug 31 2017, 3:57 pm

chestnut wrote:

Isn't there a video of chassidishe kids singing hatikva before ww2?
ETA https://youtu.be/sujUvQtmxyk Munkazc, early 30s (boys and girls sing together omg! Show me a chareidi school now where it'll happen, even at this age)
Chaya miriam, you gotta realize that the grandparents of now frum families were probably a minority of the total prewar European Jewish population

Those are 100% not chassidish kids. It says right underneath the video, it is of the hebrew gymnasium school in the city of munkatch.

Maya

Thu, Aug 31 2017, 3:58 pm

amother wrote:

The thing is though that if more people were going OTD in pre-war Europe when things were less restrictive then you can't necessarily blame the current restrictiveness for causing it...

I wasn't blaming the restrictions. I didn't speculate about potential reasons why people go off. I was just commenting to the poster who mistakenly thought that contemporary Chassidish life is similar to prewar life.

IIRC, according to Isaac Bashevis Singer, the reason why so many went OTD is because there wasn't a very workable way to combine religion with modernity, and people often had to choose one over the other.

leah233

Thu, Aug 31 2017, 4:44 pm

Throughout history the OTD crowds usually fell into one of three groups (1)In a society that allowed easy entrance to upper middle class society to everyone, the reasons was usually an assimilate belief in whatever the larger society believed (made no difference what it actually was) (2)In a society where there was little hope to join the upper middle class the OTD crowd usually turned to antiestablishment political movements (3)groups that were under extreme external duress .

The above is only about groups. Not individuals.

LovesHashem

Thu, Aug 31 2017, 4:45 pm

Raisin wrote:

We rent, and it's stressful, and the box thing can get frustrating sometimes. There are downsides. But on the other hand, you more or less make your bills, kids can grow up with much less and depending where you live it can be a norm to have less, no vacation, etc. People are open with the fact of their finances, you don't feel as alone, like I know so many people in the same boat, barely making it, renting, etc and we strengthen our emunah,

If you grow up here, or made aliyah young you are used to the no Sunday, and not having to entertain kids it's nice. There are jobs everywhere, but I understand. You do what you can and Hashem does the rest.

I feel much less pressure on clothing, materialistic things, vacations, etc here than in the USA. I've lived in both for many years. Idk, I feel much chiller here.

Sure the chareidi box thing can get annoying, but guess what? If you don't like it, then don't try to get in it! The chareidi box thing is mostly in big cities, I'm sorry - if it doesn't work for you then you need to go somewhere else. Don't assume that you should live in a boxy place, like Jerusalem if it's too hard on you. There are many smaller and cheaper chareidi communities in other cities.

In life you always have to sacrafice something when you make a decision. Decide what that will be. What price are you willing to pay?

Raisin

Thu, Aug 31 2017, 5:10 pm

LovesHashem wrote:

I don't live in Israel. In any case, I'm not saying people don't have good lives or maybe even better lives in Israel then elsewhere. But it is not stress free or free of the factors that make kids go OTD.

It would be interesting to see if rates of kids going OTD are higher or lower in Israel.

LovesHashem

Thu, Aug 31 2017, 5:45 pm

Raisin wrote:

Oh people for sure go OTD, many. I was just pointing at that the causes the original person had aren't so nogaiyah here.

But sure, high schools here are awful. Without really good chinuch at home most high schools call you an apikores for asking a question. I went to one of the few high schools that never ever called a girl an apikores....bh. But almost every person I've met that didn't go to my high school has been called that by a faculty memeber at her school

Chloe

Thu, Aug 31 2017, 6:02 pm

marina wrote:

The derech is getting narrower and narrower as pple move to the right. So the more it narrows, the easier it is to fall off.

This!!! A million times over.

amother

Cyan

Thu, Aug 31 2017, 6:56 pm

I think the schools system is failing our kids. They spend almost all their waking hrs sitting in chair being indoctrinated, lectured to, and, chanting. day after day for 12 yrs they have no time to choose for themselves, to discover their interests, to think critically, to stretch, see daylight. It's a prison. It is stressful on every level. Physically, emotionally, socially, spiritually. There are minimal extracurricular activities and minimal outdoor time. I think at some point a lot of kids just want to break free. It's the ones that aren't smart, are learning disabled, socially challenged, adhd, brilliant, abused at home as well -they just can't go on. The world just gets very small and very dark.

amother

Ginger

Thu, Aug 31 2017, 7:12 pm

Loves hashem, I disagree with some points you made.

Yes, on one hand you are right parents should not rely on the school for teaching basics about connection with hashem and all deep but basic things we should have answered for kids. But, on the other hand, since parents pay majority of their money to tuition, maybe instead of learning as much chumash or just as much there should be hashkafa classes with questioning by kids....I KNOW SOME PARENTS MAY SAY THEY DON'T WANT HASHKAFA TAUGHT BUT IF THE SCHOOL CHOSE TO USE A CERTAIN SET OF IDEAS FROM SHIURIM BY WELL KNOWN RABBIS SUCH AS THE SHMUZ OR QUES AND ANS. BY RABBI ORLOFSKY...then it would be more accepted.

I spent so much time learning chumash with no messages for my life. No meaning to me. I was a great hardworking students and was even put in the honors class but the honors class was just more work in the navi WITH NO LIFE LESSONS. now, years later, I listen to Rabbi finkleman or read rav Pam's book on pasha or a different dvar torah book and see beautiful inspiring ideas that I should be learned when I was in school!

It is the schools fault in my case bc if my parents taught me fine but many parents don't know how to teach properly even if they know. So, the purpose of my parents sending to Jewish private school is not just to teach math, sci....but for passing the Jewish....to our kids. When the schools make a curriculum they should realize, do I need to know how to open a Chumash and analyze a rashi now in my yrs as mom?...not As much I need to know the foundations of judaism, understanding life settings, what our purpose is here, how to turn to hashem anytime in troubles....I can't impart anything to my kids if I don't know it.

I only learned real life"" applications of Judaism in 12th grade. Why wait until 12th grade??? And it was once a week, very infrequently that we had a rav teach us chumash again this time with real insights to apply to real life!! I also had once a week machshava that we discussed so many reallreally important concepts that our teachers refused to discuss in 9th or..mgrade bc "then we won't cover the material meaning finish learning all the perakim we were supposed to.

I am not otd, but Rabbi mechanic put together a long seminar...about how to know hashem created the world....he realized that Ffb kids need these seminars too, not just the bt!!

Why cant schools have a class where the teacher basesbased the curriculum on Rabbi mechanics seminars???

I know how to translate almost all the davening but it doesn't help me bc I didn't learn all about hashes and having a connection with Him. I also use English to speak to Him and say "pls help me manage I'm overwhelmed." This is allowed too and yes it's better to daven that which is in the siddur but I feel more connection with English. Why did the school spend so much time teaching history of our ppl. But not the "history of us" meaning why are we here, what are our goals? What Hashem expects...

My children may have the same problems I did bc if the schools don't adjust the curriculum then....but I have no idea how to teach my kids these basics bc I am learning a lot now but I will try to expose them to these important ideas by trying to get them interested in listening to these ideas on torahanytime or... they may not be interested???

LovesHashem

Fri, Sep 01 2017, 4:29 am

amother wrote:

1. And they still don't have enough money and time to teach kids hashkafah...They need to be on par so the girl get can into a good high school, sem, and marry a good guy, They need to be up to par on chumash, and rashi, gemara...I don't run the system... I'm just saying the reality of it. Take it or leave it. Sure I wish it wasn't this way, but don't deny it!

2. You need to learn and teach, to end this cycle, so at least YOUR kids will know. Schools for girls were never made to educate about loving Hashem, hashkafa, etc. They were intelectual, girls learning inside. You need to be responsible. If you care about your kids, find out what they learn in school and what they don't. Complaining won't get you anywhere. I'm sorry. Me and a lot of my friends learned such concepts in our teens from shuirs, books, etc. And we are trying pass that down to our kids from a young age. There's actually a program in Israel for girls and women age 17+ that is trying to help with that, its shuirim about fundamentals in Judiasm, it's Baruch Hashem a wonderful idea and they are slowly gaining a reputation. I beleive they do want to expand to America, but the point is that's a band-aid, a solution for it much later on. You need to teach your kids, that's your job as a parent.

3. Everyone has a different hashkafa, teachers themselves don't know how to answer girls, are scared of saying "I don't know", they don't know the material either. Girls aren't mature enough to listen at most ages to adult shuirim. They need to be dumbed down, teachers are scared questions in class will lead to girls thinking and questioning and they are to full of pride to send them to the right adress.

4. Again, start from a young age. You don't wake up when they are 16 and say "HEY go listen to this site". I have a good friend whose family is obbsessed with Torah Anytime, they had 13 kids and shuirs are playing in their house all the time, even their 2 year old knows whaty it is. Kids are smart, they know so much about candy crash, let it go, moana, but you think they are too young to parrot, and get excited about Hashem?

amother

Emerald

Fri, Sep 01 2017, 7:12 am

LovesHashem wrote:

Love Hashem, even if it's true what you are saying. I don't think it's the point now. If we want to save hundreds of young boys and girls today, that is a really not going to work.
And it very nice that a family had 13 kids and had shiurim running all day but please be honest for a sec.... Seriously how normal is that? I would love to speak to one of the teenagers in that house see what a person they are

LovesHashem

Fri, Sep 01 2017, 7:20 am

amother wrote:

What's not going to work? Taking responsiblity for your own kids' chinuch? No one else is going to. I know the family very well, they are normal, and you would never think that. Some of their kids struggle with taivos, they have many teens, and all the issues that are going around like boysfriends/girlfriends, drugs, mental illness, abuse, they have dealt with as most big families. They struggle like everyone else, some of their kids are real chareidi, others dati leumi, others fall in the middle- but all of them know the basics of Judiasm, listen to shuirs, and are deeply connected.

Obiously this is already a seperate topic from OTD, as kids even with good chinuch can go off...for other reasons.

amother

Emerald

Fri, Sep 01 2017, 7:25 am

LovesHashem wrote:

You need to be smart not right

LovesHashem

Fri, Sep 01 2017, 9:27 am

amother wrote:

You need to be smart not right

I can't understand you if you are going to be so vague. I know that phrase, I'm just not sure what you are reffering to as 'right' or 'smart'

amother

Blush

Fri, Sep 01 2017, 10:48 am

LovesHashem wrote:

Most big families deal with those things?!

LovesHashem

Fri, Sep 01 2017, 11:18 am

amother wrote:

Most big families deal with those things?!

I meant, the typical tzaros that are going around. Most people can name quite a few names of people they know per each of those tzaros, I did not mean to say they dealt with all of them. I'm just pointing out they are a regular familiar struggling with life like anyone else in 2017. They don't have a picture perfect life or come from meah sharim and LOVEEEEEEEEEEEE Hashem and their biggest problem is like tzniyus skirts. No, they are a normal family. The issues I mention are issues are pentrating society so much, (I have yet to meet a single person not affected either firsthand, if not then second hand to any of those issues). Did not mean to say they have dealt with all of them and that's what moist big families deal with...everyone knows people dealing with that stuff nowadays.

Just got a lot of teens, and teens get places. So they aren't naive, dumb, or living in bliss.

life is fun

Fri, Sep 01 2017, 1:31 pm

amother wrote:

I read these kids are not turned off they were never turned on. OTDs think by throwing away yiddishkeit they will be happier. If we're accepting and caring parents and teachers they won't feel such a need to look elsewhere. There is allot of pain and shame having an otd child

Very often children/adults going OTD have had a lot of negative experiences in the frum community. Whether it's abuse rejection or hypocrisy.
It is therefore that we need to try and make yiddishkeit as pleasant and positive as possible for them so that they shoulshould stay.

amother

Tan

Tue, Sep 05 2017, 3:01 pm

There are other places to live which aren't so expensive that would allow for some breathing room. Different rav, different shul, different politics, but maybe that is necessary.

There needs to be a change. The status quo doesn't cut it for a lot of folks.

I switched my DS into a community Jewish school. There is no mishnah or gemara. Only Modern Hebrew and overview of holidays and Tanach. And the emphasis is on "joy". Every erev Shabbos, the whole school gets together and sings songs shirim in the morning. He already went to volunteer already at a shelter with a group of kids, organized by the school and he sat with people and talked to them. He is 11. He really cares. I'm so happy that he is happy and I hope this school will help him to love being Jewish. We try to do our part at home. I emphasize studying something a little every day but it's practical and from Tanach. He won't be a yeshiva bochur but I hope he'll stay Jewish and observant.