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-> Fashion and Beauty
-> Sheitels & Tichels
AhavaRabbah
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 Mon, Sep 25 2017, 7:21 am
| chavamom wrote: | | So this is based on your feelings, not halacha. Got it. |
Well, no, not quite. You're mixing apples with oranges. On the one hand, we have all the Rabbonim a Jew could want (totaling over 100 Poskim), saying that sheitels (especially the gorgeous ones of today) are a no-no.
On the other hand, we have the obvious truth of the matter in addition to the Poskim's rulings ...which is what my last comments were about.
I find it noteworthy that you didn't even bring one viable counter argument to all the interesting observations I made...other than to question my source, which I answered you about.
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shabbatiscoming
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Mon, Sep 25 2017, 7:24 am
| AhavaRabbah wrote: | Well, no, not quite. You're mixing apples with oranges. On the one hand, we have all the Rabbonim a Jew could want (totaling over 100 Poskim), saying that sheitels (especially the gorgeous ones of today) are a no-no.
On the other hand, we have the obvious truth of the matter in addition to the Poskim's rulings ...which is what my last comments were about.
I find it noteworthy that you didn't even bring one viable counter argument to all the interesting observations I made...other than to question my source, which I answered you about. | But there are rabbanim that say it IS fine to wear wigs.........
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S1959
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Mon, Sep 25 2017, 7:50 am
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"The purpose of a sheitel is that the hair be completely covered if only a portion of the hair is covered then it does not accomplish this purpose." "wearing a hat or even a kerchief leaves part of the hair uncovered, at least for a short while, I.e., causing one to transgress a major prohibition, as explained in Shulchan Aruch , Orach Chayim ch. 75."Wearing a sheitel is especially appropriate now, when one can obtain a sheitel in various shades, which looks even nicer than one's own hair."
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mommy3b2c
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Mon, Sep 25 2017, 8:07 am
| AhavaRabbah wrote: | Because I know who she is, and I know that she helped write the book.
I'm still waiting for someone to argue back about what I wrote about the Britney Spears sheitels... |
Britney Spears completely shaved her head bald at one point....
Aha!!! So that's why chassidish women shave. They're obviously trying to copy her!!!
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going-up
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Mon, Sep 25 2017, 8:10 am
Chavamom I am just going to do you the favor of clarifying a few thing you have seemed to have misunderstood. Happysmile has not been quoting Rabbi Falks Sefer (which your "charedi" Rav does not allow) in the most recent quoted post but adorned with dignity by Rebetzin Chana Toby Friedman. Secondly happysmile confirmed that she is not one of the authors but had permission to quote from the book from the author.
On a separate note I think we are all different and all work on different aspects of our avodos Hashem at different rates. Many of us are ready to hear the truth and change from a sheital to a tichel even in a professional environment. On the other hand for many of us we are not ready to hear it and would rather work on other stuff like ahavas yisroel. So let's all speak respectfully and eachother and respect the views of others even if we are not up to there or do not feels the same.
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Notsobusy
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Mon, Sep 25 2017, 8:19 am
| going-up wrote: |
On a separate note I think we are all different and all work on different aspects of our avodos Hashem at different rates. Many of us are ready to hear the truth and change from a sheital to a tichel even in a professional environment. On the other hand for many of us we are not ready to hear it and would rather work on other stuff like ahavas yisroel. So let's all speak respectfully and eachother and respect the views of others even if we are not up to there or do not feels the same. |
I would like to clarify a slight misunderstanding that you and smilehappy1 seem to have. It is NOT THE TRUTH that a tichel is better than a sheitel. Some rabbnonim hold it is better, many do not. As long as we go according to our rabbonim, we are going according to OUR TRUTH!. It's not that we aren't up to there, it's that we don't consider wearing tichels "up", we just consider it a different path of yiddishkeit. We respect your views, as long as you don't claim they are the only truth, and as long you don't try to push them on everybody. And we respect your rabbonim but we expect you to respect our rabbonim too.
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going-up
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Mon, Sep 25 2017, 8:24 am
| Notsobusy wrote: | | I would like to clarify a slight misunderstanding that you and smilehappy1 seem to have. It is NOT THE TRUTH that a tichel is better than a sheitel. Some rabbnonim hold it is better, many do not. As long as we go according to our rabbonim, we are going according to OUR TRUTH!. It's not that we aren't up to there, it's that we don't consider wearing tichels "up", we just consider it a different path of yiddishkeit. We respect your views, as long as you don't claim they are the only truth, and as long you don't try to push them on everybody. And we respect your rabbonim but we expect you to respect our rabbonim too. |
Right everyone should go according to their truth. And we should all continue to seek the truth and grow in our yiddish kite however that may be.
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happysmile1
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Mon, Sep 25 2017, 9:24 am
Almost every Rav holds that a tichel is better than a sheitel (except the Lubavitcher Rebbe and that's complicated in itself) and to say that a sheitel is better is completely over the top a sheker and a desecration of the mitzvah of kisui rosh. And if women dont understand that a tichel is the ideal they most definitely have not studied the mitzvah at all and they are completely uneducated and uninformed.
How could one honestly say that an item (the sheitel) which was assured by rov poskim (it was allowed by some Rabbanim at certain times and only wiggy wigs) and is a HETER - how could that be better than a tichel which is what was worn for centuries by Jewish woman, which was never a dispute by the poskim, which makes a woman look obviously married, which is unattractive to men and is most definitely the ideal halachically and hashkafically.
The wigs have been screamed about in the past by GIANTS- there have been those that said that women who wear them will burn in gehenim (Baba Sali and others) and you're going to write that it's better than a tichel?? An item that looks like hair?? Which is supposed to be covering ones hair? That the majority of poskim assured and forbade their descendants to wear??
Anyone who writes a wig is better is someone who wants to justify what they are wearing and feel they are doing the best - even when they are not, they are going against almost every single Gadol and they are in total denial of the emes.
Yes, there is an accepted HETER (leniency) for a wig in Judaism (which has been debated and again many say only for wiggy wigs) but it is most definitely not the ideal head covering. Our imahos did not wear wigs and when Moshiach comes we will not be wearing them either- didn't say that, pg 105 The unique Princess- it quotes Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach that when Moshiach comes THE FIRST THING he'll do is abolish the use of wigs! You want to argue with Rav Auerbach and all the Poskim and Gedolim??
The argument of the sheitel covering hair better is an argument by the yetzer hora. If a woman wants to wear a tichel hashkafically she will know how to cover all her hair properly. It was done for centuries and now it's even easier with velvet headbands and volumizers etc...
And the small hairs that might escape are not a halachic issue and do not equal the pritzus if a wig - as I posted before there were many Gedolim who stated that a wig is like all the hair is showing!
This is not about judging at all- these are the facts. No one is judging women who wear wigs- but there's nothing wrong with saying what's allowed and not allowed and what's better and not better. Would anyone argue with me that wearing a looser shirt and is less tznius that a tight shirt? No. To argue and say that a wig is better is just ludicrous and I know from all the private messages that I'm getting that many women knows this to be true and are appreciating the info- even if only the nasty comments are being posted publicly
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saw50st8
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Mon, Sep 25 2017, 9:27 am
This thread is a classic. It's a fight between the crazy right and the not so far right who feel like they are being dragged along.
I personally prefer Rav Broyde's limmud zchus on hair covering to the Israeli Charedi Rabbonim.
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SixOfWands
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Mon, Sep 25 2017, 9:31 am
| Mevater wrote: | | If you asked healthy men to vote who looked more zexy? Women in sheitels or women in tichels w hair showing, even if theyre drop dead gorgeous, I dont think most men would hesitate to vote that women in sheitels are zexier. |
I think that the point was different.
If women are responsible for men's "sins" even if dressed wholly in accordance with halacha, including wearing a sheitel, then what of fetishists? Men who have a special predilection for bald women, or women in scarves, or women with seamed stockings.
We can't control men. We can only control ourselves. And trust that they are perfectly capable of controlling themselves, without help from us.
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SuperWify
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Mon, Sep 25 2017, 9:31 am
Question: are bulky colorful head wraps often beaded and bejeweled not attractive?
Btw I read this book right you do recommend before I got married. I asked my father (who is really machmir on almost everything) if it's so simple that sheitels are assur (as this book makes it sound) how can it be that 1000s of frum women are not making the switch?
He said it's not black and white. Wigs are not the end if the world and tichels aren't either. Just cover your head. HOW you want to depends on what you want and the community you come from.
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bigsis144
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Mon, Sep 25 2017, 9:34 am
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If everyone stopped replying to this thread, would happysmile1 think she'd won by having the last word? Or would she actually understand that she cannot and will not convince us?
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saw50st8
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Mon, Sep 25 2017, 9:35 am
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I have never seen a woman wearing a tichel who didn't have some hair showing by mistake at some point. Even the people who say they never had a stitch of hair showing - they don't see the back by their neck.
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Iymnok
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Mon, Sep 25 2017, 9:38 am
| bigsis144 wrote: | | If everyone stopped replying to this thread, would happysmile1 think she'd won by having the last word? Or would she actually understand that she cannot and will not convince us? |
We could all block her posts. 
Then the thread could go back to what it was, a halachic question about avoda Zara, not a constant diatribe about tznius and hashkafa.
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happybeingamom
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Mon, Sep 25 2017, 9:39 am
| happysmile1 wrote: | Almost every Rav holds that a tichel is better than a sheitel (except the Lubavitcher Rebbe and that's complicated in itself) and to say that a sheitel is better is completely over the top a sheker and a desecration of the mitzvah of kisui rosh. And if women dont understand that a tichel is the ideal they most definitely have not studied the mitzvah at all and they are completely uneducated and uninformed.
How could one honestly say that an item (the sheitel) which was assured by rov poskim (it was allowed by some Rabbanim at certain times and only wiggy wigs) and is a HETER - how could that be better than a tichel which is what was worn for centuries by Jewish woman, which was never a dispute by the poskim, which makes a woman look obviously married, which is unattractive to men and is most definitely the ideal halachically and hashkafically.
The wigs have been screamed about in the past by GIANTS- there have been those that said that women who wear them will burn in gehenim (Baba Sali and others) and you're going to write that it's better than a tichel?? An item that looks like hair?? Which is supposed to be covering ones hair? That the majority of poskim assured and forbade their descendants to wear??
Anyone who writes a wig is better is someone who wants to justify what they are wearing and feel they are doing the best - even when they are not, they are going against almost every single Gadol and they are in total denial of the emes.
Yes, there is an accepted HETER (leniency) for a wig in Judaism (which has been debated and again many say only for wiggy wigs) but it is most definitely not the ideal head covering. Our imahos did not wear wigs and when Moshiach comes we will not be wearing them either- didn't say that, pg 105 The unique Princess- it quotes Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach that when Moshiach comes THE FIRST THING he'll do is abolish the use of wigs! You want to argue with Rav Auerbach and all the Poskim and Gedolim??
The argument of the sheitel covering hair better is an argument by the yetzer hora. If a woman wants to wear a tichel hashkafically she will know how to cover all her hair properly. It was done for centuries and now it's even easier with velvet headbands and volumizers etc...
And the small hairs that might escape are not a halachic issue and do not equal the pritzus if a wig - as I posted before there were many Gedolim who stated that a wig is like all the hair is showing!
This is not about judging at all- these are the facts. No one is judging women who wear wigs- but there's nothing wrong with saying what's allowed and not allowed and what's better and not better. Would anyone argue with me that wearing a looser shirt and is less tznius that a tight shirt? No. To argue and say that a wig is better is just ludicrous and I know from all the private messages that I'm getting that many women knows this to be true and are appreciating the info- even if only the nasty comments are being posted publicly |
Who appointed you the speaker for all the women in klal yisroel?
I will wear my shaitel proudly just like my ancestors did. When my great grandmother came to america in the early 1900's the wicked ones threw her shatiel in the ocean because in America we don't cover the hair.
Many of us have mesoros going back generations on wearing shaitels.
It is people with ideas like yours who are so busy with the Taful the Ikur of Yiddishkeit is being thrown away. I sadly see this everyday. Your missionizing can very likely cause people to be less makpid in covering their hair. Have you asked your Rav if you should be doing this on the internet to people who you are making upset? Do we give mussar to someone who will not listen and might cause them to sin more? Since you hold that we are sinning, be concerned that you are causing us to sin more.
Do not tell me that my great grandmothers & grandmothers are in Gehinom. How dare you! Are you the Ribono Shel Olom? I do not follow any passukim of the Babi Sali, his path is not my mesorah, his path was not my ancestors mesorah.
Chutzpah & Azuz!
No I am not afraid of the truth, I have my mesorah and I follow it. That is my truth.
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happysmile1
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Mon, Sep 25 2017, 9:47 am
It's very simple- the Torah states that the hair of a married woman is considered ervah after marriage. This means it's a part of the body which has to now be covered because it is a source of attraction to men.
Covering that hair with nice hair or even nicer hair will surely have the same attraction as ones hair - especially as most of the wigs look just like someone's own hair! (And arguing with this point is ridiculous, why else is there an exploding wig and extension industry around the world- women want to look beautiful with amazing hair.)
Men are visual, they will be just as attracted to you or most probably more so cuz the wigs are usually much nicer than ones own hair.
That is the wig wearers responsibility- not only the mans problem. Yes he has to guard his eyes, but we also can't be a stumbling block for him. Everyone could be in denial about it but unless a woman is wearing a wig that is not so natural and pretty she is not covering her hair properly BECAUSE she is going to attract men with her nice silky wig! The Torah says in many places how hair is a source of attraction.
Do we all know better than the Torah what attracts men?
Why are so many of the women on this thread getting all crazy about the thought of giving up their sheitel and having to wear a tichel?? Because they know they all look a hundred times more beautiful and glamorous in their wigs (which is why many actresses and models are wearing them now)
So yes, if a woman is doing everything possible (and that does not mean wearing a beautiful wig) to not attract a man it's not her responsibility if a man has a wierd fixation for scarves or hats. But we know from the Torah that hair is alluring to men, we know from the secular world that hair is a major source of beauty- so wearing a pretty silky attractive wig is most definitely not trying your hardest to make sure men don't look at you.
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5mom
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Mon, Sep 25 2017, 9:47 am
| S1959 wrote: | | "The purpose of a sheitel is that the hair be completely covered if only a portion of the hair is covered then it does not accomplish this purpose." "wearing a hat or even a kerchief leaves part of the hair uncovered, at least for a short while, I.e., causing one to transgress a major prohibition, as explained in Shulchan Aruch , Orach Chayim ch. 75."Wearing a sheitel is especially appropriate now, when one can obtain a sheitel in various shades, which looks even nicer than one's own hair." |
I can't copy and paste now, but the Shulchan Aruch (I assume you mean 75:2, though you didn't mention which paragraph) doesn't say what you claim it does. There's nothing there about major sin.
It says that one may not say Shema in front of a woman whose hair is uncovered if she usually covers it. The Rema adds that a woman who usually comes out of her house with her hair uncovered or one who wears a wig is like an unmarried woman, in front of whom one may say Shema even if her hair is uncovered.
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happybeingamom
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Mon, Sep 25 2017, 9:51 am
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I am still trying to figure out what covering my hair has to do with Hollywood stars, people I know nothing about?
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SixOfWands
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Mon, Sep 25 2017, 10:03 am
| happybeingamom wrote: | | I am still trying to figure out what covering my hair has to do with Hollywood stars, people I know nothing about? |
(1) Hollywood stars are hot
(2) They sometimes wear wigs
(3) Ergo we may not wear wigs
(1) Chrissy Metz and Jaime Alexander wore modest dresses to the Emmy Awards
(2) Chrissy Metz and Jaime Alexander are a Hollywood stars
(3) Since we may not dress like Hollywood stars, we may not wear modest dresses
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AhavaRabbah
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Mon, Sep 25 2017, 10:03 am
| happybeingamom wrote: | Who appointed you the speaker for all the women in klal yisroel?
I will wear my shaitel proudly just like my ancestors did. When my great grandmother came to america in the early 1900's the wicked ones threw her shatiel in the ocean because in America we don't cover the hair.
Many of us have mesoros going back generations on wearing shaitels.
It is people with ideas like yours who are so busy with the Taful the Ikur of Yiddishkeit is being thrown away. I sadly see this everyday. Your missionizing can very likely cause people to be less makpid in covering their hair. Have you asked your Rav if you should be doing this on the internet to people who you are making upset? Do we give mussar to someone who will not listen and might cause them to sin more? Since you hold that we are sinning, be concerned that you are causing us to sin more.
Do not tell me that my great grandmothers & grandmothers are in Gehinom. How dare you! Are you the Ribono Shel Olom? I do not follow any passukim of the Babi Sali, his path is not my mesorah, his path was not my ancestors mesorah.
Chutzpah & Azuz!
No I am not afraid of the truth, I have my mesorah and I follow it. That is my truth. |
Um, I bet you that your Great Grandmother's sheitel looks nothing like the sheitels today!! You can't compare one to the other.....that is the difference between kosher and not kosher according to our Poskim who have ruled on the sheitels. Listen to what HaRav Elyashiv zt"l spoke about the sheitel. He clearly said those of 100 years ago were kosher. They were short, stiff, and obvious to all that they were wigs.
For those who say the Lubavitcher Rebbe zt"l permitted sheitels, um, I really really doubt he would have allowed super long wigs of today. Just a hunch. I saw a picture of him in 1985, with a line of women waiting to receive his blessing. The sheitels those women were wearing can hardly be found at all today! Curly short old-lady hair styled sheitels. The longest sheitel in the whole group was a shoulder length, straight, plain one! Those are the ones he permitted!
Let's not fool ourselves that the Poskim who permitted sheitels would have permitted the long dramatic ones we see today.
Last edited by AhavaRabbah on Mon, Sep 25 2017, 10:14 am; edited 2 times in total
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