I am dying a slow, painful death with my son's behavior.

little neshamala

Tue, Oct 31 2017, 2:02 pm

I know im going to get blasted for what I have to say but I dont care.

Op, my heart goes out to you. This must be incredibly painful. BN I will keep you in my tefilos.

Domestic violence? Physical abuse?? Call the cops??? Would you say that if her son was 7?? This is a CHILD. Yes, what he is doing is awful and very wrong. And it must be stopped. But I hardly think he merits the title of physical abuser.

He is clearly in pain, and OP, im sorry but your attitude towards him is just going to perpetuate a vicious cycle. His father gives him TLC and he gravitates to him....you think? Of course! For whatever reason this child is in incredible emotional pain and youre talking about how no matter how much you punish him, take things away from him and dont feed him(!!), for some crazy reason you are just not getting through to him.

I dont understand how when a mother says she has "confiscated literally every thing he owns and refused to give him supper" everybody sides with her and says her kids is basically crazy.

Take it from someone who has been in pain as a child, and has lashed out as well because I didnt know what else to do...he needs more love than what youre giving.

YES YES YES HE MAY ALSO NEED PROFESSIONAL HELP. But right now im more saddened and troubled by OPs attitude.

SixOfWands

Tue, Oct 31 2017, 2:07 pm

amother wrote:

My response about a typical oldest is from personal experience as an oldest. And I hate this attitude it's the kids fault. What comes first the chicken or the egg? Something is wrong with the way he is being raised. You never threaten a kid with food! That's a post war kind of behavior.

You don't know this.

Clearly there is something wrong. Clearly this is a child who needs professional help. Most likely this is a family that needs professional help in dealing with this child, and in dealing with each other.

Its absurd to lay blame. It doesn't help, and it assumes things we don't know. OP may be the best mother on earth who is doing the best job imaginable with a child who has very real mental health challenges. You would never dare say "well, it must be the way he's raises" to a family whose child has physical or developmental issues. Why do you think its OK to say that to someone whose child has mental health issues?

Of course, its is possible that OP is horrible. (OP, I don't think you are.) So what? She's looking for guidance as to what to do now. What matters is that the situation that exists now be addressed.

No one thinks that an inpatient commitment is the best thing ever, oh, yay, everyone should do this once. But it is the right thing for some situations. And not for others. OP needs professional guidance, so that a decision as to the proper course of treatment can be made for HER child, not someone else's.

And sure, it would be lovely if taking an adolescent out for ice cream and saying "gee, honey, what's wrong" would solve all the problems in the world. But it cannot. Mental health professionals are trained to help when the situation has gone beyond ice cream. They can help learn why. And they can help heal. They're not the enemy of helping your child. They're the vehicle.

OP, best of luck. Your child CAN be helped. Your family CAN be helped. Waiting to hear good things from you.

amother

Lemon

Tue, Oct 31 2017, 2:14 pm

The people who are saying to hospitalize him, call the cops are in my opinion going down a very very dangerous road. If your sons behavior was like this across the board ( aggressive at school as well and with your husband) then it may be called for but your post indicates of a child in extreme extreme pain!! He needs unconditional love!!! Obviously violence is never tolerated but depriving a child dinner will only allow the situation to escalate. This situation sounds so so difficult and major hugs OP. You must be suffering so much!!
Btw please don't tell your sons Rebbe what a nightmare he is. It sounds like a safe place for him that he feels good about himself _ don't ruin that for him. Much hatzlacha!

amother

Fuchsia

Tue, Oct 31 2017, 2:22 pm

amother wrote:

I have not been on this website in years, but I seriously don't know who to turn to. I hope someone here can direct me. I have a son who is 12, very close to bar mitzvah. On the outside, he is an angel. He never acts up in school, never gets in trouble. He is extremely self conscious about himself and about what everyone is thinking. THEN HE COMES HOME. He terrorizes the family. I am his #1 victim. He calls me every disgusting low words out there. He turns into a monster if I don't let him have what he wants. He recently started becoming violent with me. He smacks, punches, kicks me etc. He can CARE LESS what I say. I have punished him until I have no more ideas. I have literally confiscated every single thing he ever owned. I refuse to give him dinner or do things for him. He is horrible to his siblings. He will walk right by them and smack them for no reason. He is always looking to bother or fight someone. I really cannot stand him. I already have many health issues and I fear I might drop dead at any moment from the stress. I have met with a therapist but then we had a family death and we stopped going. He has never actually gone, only my husband and I. Sometimes I wish he would just disappear. He is completely ruining my life one moment at a time. I really don't even know if I love him. I am so over yelling and threatening.
I can't do another minute of this. Has anyone been through this? Besides the obvious therapy is there anywhere else I can resort to to help me? I am so broken.

Side points:

1. Husband is a very laid back kind of person who rarely defends me. They are buddy buddy.
2. This has been going on for about 2.5 years with the last year being the worst.
3. He does not have any diagnosed physical or mental disabilities.
4. He is the oldest of 5

Any help or words of encouragement are literally pikuach nefesh as I feel I can't go on.

Dearest precious "Seafoam,"

My arms are around you - I am sending you a warm supportive embrace and hugs and kisses.
I wish I could do it literally.

My heart constricted in pain as I read your post of the tremendous pain and suffering and
fear you are undergoing.
Physical pain and mental and emotional pain.

And the intense pain that it is your own child who is wreaking havoc. I am quite sure that beneath all your anger at him you still love him even a bit and are in deep pain at his behavior against you.

His behavior has reached the danger point. I feel it's SOS that you reach for help to an authorized organization/s and askanim (I don't know how it works where you live) ONLY to
someone and orgs. that have experience in these types of situations. Please make sure that whomever you consult has experience and knows how to handle this, b/c there has been
many events that well-meaning authorized people try to help and their help had the opposite effect and it boomerangs

It's interesting that your son is okay in school. I won't say - interesting - but B'H that at least in school your dear son is fine.

It shows something. Something in school is good for him, whether the authority, or the atmosphere, or the love the Rebbe e.t.c gives your son. e.t.c e.t.c He feels good there. He
also feels that he can't do what he wants at his will.

Or, it might be the opposite: something is happening to him at school that is hurting your son very deeply, and he is defenseless to act up to it at school, so he lets out all his angst at
home - after school.

Perhaps it might be a good idea to speak to his Rebbe, but I feel that your son should not know that you spoke to his Rebbe, since you are the one he is letting out all his anger and pain at.
If his Rebbe is a skilled person, he will know that absolutely not to give your son a mussar drasha - that will only push your son away from him and increase his anger. If the Rebbe is knowledgeable, not only from what he learned in education books but has a G-D Given intuition on how to handle children, he will know how to get through to your son without mentioning directly to your son that he is aware of his behavior at home. His Rebbe will find a
way be'H to get your son to talk about what is hurting him and how he is behaving at home.
That is only is your son feels trust and feels secure with his Rebbe.
It doesn't have to be his Rebbe to help your son, it could be the principal, an adult relative whom your son likes and can look up to as an older brother, or such a person in the community.
BUT it must be someone who will know how to draw your son to him and not away from him. And has experience in these situations.

OP: please do not get insulted. One thing in your letter bothered me immensely.
I know that you are in terrible pain and suffering and had to pour it out in the post. A desperate plea for help. BUT the whole post is "I" - about you. How you feel. Nowhere did I see the slightest mention of perhaps how your son feels.

Think into this point if you are able. What do you think is the reason that you are focusing only on your pain?
Not your son's. Not your husband's pain. Even if it seems he is siding with your son he is still also in pain at the situation.
You did mention that your son is hurting your other children.
It seemed to me, I might be wrong, that whoever in your view is acting aginst you - your husband and son, you are unable to see that they are in pain. Your other kids are in a neutral position, so their pain your can see to a degree.
And your own pain you see as skyrocketing.
It probably is. But so high might be the pain level of your own son and your husband.

I know you will be angry at me for pointing this out.

There is a core sore point that is making your son act this way. Every act that a person does has a root that started it. The root could be bubbling subconsciously in your son. He might not even know the root, and probably will have to be made aware of it through therapy, and
along the way during the course of therapy, I wouldn't be surprised if a waterfall of painful issues gush out of your son. This will happen only if he has an expert therapist.

It does not have to be that you are the the core sore point, it could be something else
entirely and your son is letting out his feelings at you.

Your son sounds very angry and in a lot of pain and suffering.
For now I don't think punishing him is going to be effective at all - the opposite, it will only increase his dangerous behavior. I would certainly NOT confiscate all his possessions or deprive him of food. Don't you see that such acts only increase his rage and hard feelings towards you and causes him to act more violent. It boomerangs back at YOU!

I know this is very, in fact extremely hard for you to do: try to do some act of love for your son. Perhaps leave him a love note with a chocolate bar taped to it, in a place where you know he will find it. Or lay out his favorite clothing on his bed ready for him to wear for school (of course when he doesn't notice) and tape a loving note to it.

At first he probably will reject your loving acts and "throw them back at you".
Don't react. It will be hard. I know.
BUT
Something of YOUR love will touch his hardened heart.

Please note: I am in NO way condoning your son's behavior and saying it is fine. It is NOT fine at all. It is terrible and has reached danger point.

Try not to get into fights with him; no matter how boiling you're feeling; fighting will only make you and your son EVEN MORE at war against each other - "knock your heads together," it won't do anything good.

CONSULT AUTHORITIES IMMEDIATELY. SOS!!!

Again, your son needs expert help. A loving but very firm and understanding guidance.

And you and your family also need the same - to get out of the trauma that your son has wreaked on you all, and then to know how to handle and live with the situation.

Re your husband: like other posters have suggested wisely: he has to be united with you in handling your son.
The fact that he is on your son's side gives your son more support and leverage aginst you.

AND - I wouldn't be surprised if your husband is AFRAID of your son and doesn't want to get onto his wrong side, and that is why he is acting so apathetic, and not using his parental strength as a father.

So sorry for my long megillah.
I really, really feel for you. I am holding your hand - far apart but very near at heart.
May Hashem Send you, your son and your family the right shlichim to help you all.

With love -

a very caring and concerned amother

amother

Plum

Tue, Oct 31 2017, 2:44 pm

amother wrote:

Dearest precious "Seafoam,"

My arms are around you - I am sending you a warm supportive embrace and hugs and kisses.
I wish I could do it literally.

My heart constricted in pain as I read your post of the tremendous pain and suffering and
fear you are undergoing.
Physical pain and mental and emotional pain.

And the intense pain that it is your own child who is wreaking havoc. I am quite sure that beneath all your anger at him you still love him even a bit and are in deep pain at his behavior against you.

His behavior has reached the danger point. I feel it's SOS that you reach for help to an authorized organization/s and askan (I don't know how it works where you live) ONLY to someone and orgs. that have experience in these types of situations.Please make sure that whomever you consult has experience and knows how to handle this, b/c there has been many events that well-meaning authorized people try to help and their help had the opposite effect and it boomerangs.

It's interesting that your son is okay in school. I won't say - interesting - but B'H that at least in school your dear son is fine.
It shows something. Something in school is good for him, whether the authority, or the atmosphere, or the love the Rebbe e.t.c gives your son. e.t.c e.t.c He feels good there. He also feels that he can't do what he wants at his will.

Or, it might be the opposite: something is happening to him at school that is hurting your son very deeply, and he is defenseless to act up to it at school, so he lets out all his angst at home - after school.

Perhaps it might be a good idea to speak to his Rebbe, but I feel that your son should not know that you spoke to his Rebbe, since you are the one he is letting out all his anger and pain at.
If his Rebbe is a skilled person, he will know that absolutely not to give your son a mussar drasha - that will only push your son away from him and increase his anger. If the Rebbe is knowledgeable, not only from what he learned in education books but has a G-D Given intuition on how to handle children, he will know how to get through to your son without mentioning directly to your son that he is aware of his behavior at home.

There is a core sore point that is making your son act this way. Every act that a person does has a root that started it. The root could be bubbling subconsciously in your son. He might not even know the root, and perhaps will have to be made aware of it through therapy.
It does not have to be that you are the the core sore point, it could be something else entirely and your son is letting out his feelings at you.

Your son sounds very angry and in a lot of pain and suffering.
For now I don't think punishing him is going to be effective at all - the opposite, it will only increase his dangerous behavior.
I know this is very, in fact extremely hard for you to do: try to do some act of love for your son. Perhaps leave him a love note with a chocolate bar taped to it, in a place where you know he will find it. Or lay out his favorite clothing on his bed ready for him to wear for school (of course when he doesn't notice) and tape a loving note to it.

At first he probably will reject your loving acts and "throw them back at you".
Don't react. It will be hard. I know.
BUT
Something of YOUR love will touch his hardened heart.

Please note: I am in NO way condoning your son's behavior and saying it is fine. It is NOT fine at all. It is terrible and has reached danger point.

Try not to get into fights with him; no matter how boiling you're feeling; fighting will only make you and your son EVEN MORE at war against each other - "knock your heads together," it won't do anything good.

CONSULT AUTHORITIES IMMEDIATELY. SOS!!!

Again, your son needs expert help. A loving but very firm and understanding guidance.

And you and your family also need the same - to get out of the trauma that your son has wreaked on you all, and then to know how to handle and live with the situation.

Re your husband: like other posters have suggested wisely: he has to be united with you in handling your son.
The fact that he is on your son's side gives your son more support and leverage aginst you.

AND - I wouldn't be surprised if your husband is AFRAID of your son and doesn't want to get onto his wrong side, and that is why he is acting so apathetic, and not using his parental strength as a father.

So sorry for my long megillah.
I really, really feel for you. I am holding your hand - far apart but very near at heart.
May Hashem Send you, your son and your family the right shlichim to help you all.

With love -

a very caring and concerned amother

Fuschia, this so special of you. You really feel the caring and love in your words. I second every word you said and I hope that I second all the care you feel for OP.

little neshamala

Tue, Oct 31 2017, 2:46 pm

Lets try this a different way.

Dear Imafathers

Im turning to you because I have nowhere else to go. Please help. My son, aged 12, is a very very sensitive child. He feels things on a very itense level and needs a LOT of attention, which I try to give him, tho its exhausting. Of the 2 of us, my wife is more of a disciplinarian, and I tend to be laid back. My son and I naturally have a good relationship. We are quite close. I know he feels safe with me.

BH he is also doing beautifully at school. When I spoke to his Rebbi by parent teachers conference he went on and on about his midos and social skills. He has a lot of friends and is actually excelling academically! BH!

The problem is he and my wife just dont get along. I dont know how to stop the cycle...he lashes out at her (possibly for attention?) And she lashes out at him....sometimes wuite strongly in my opinion. Recently he started hitting and kicking her. I know its not ok and it must be stopped, but I dont know how to intervene...I dont want to threaten the relationship with my son...but he needs to know it has to stop.

What should I do?

Thank you,
A father

dancingqueen

Tue, Oct 31 2017, 2:54 pm

debsey wrote:

I also want to point out - as a corollary to what I wrote above - that when a kid is acting out so violently that mom doesn't feel safe in her own home - we're AT that last resort. Outpatient treatment is too risky. He could threaten her with a knife and actually stab her! No one can take that kind of chance.

This. Seriously, amothers? She should just be nicer to him? Her son may already be bigger and stronger than her! She is in danger and so are the younger kids.

Hugs op, how horrible that your dh doesn’t even have your back in all this.

dancingqueen

Tue, Oct 31 2017, 2:57 pm

little neshamala wrote:

Sorry but this man sounds like a wuss. A normal man does not let anyone physically hurt his wife if he can possibly stop it.

chaiz

Tue, Oct 31 2017, 2:57 pm

little neshamala wrote:

There is nowhere that tells us that he is excelling in school. Just because he is an angel doesn't mean he is excelling. Also, nowhere do we know that the father and son have a good relationship and nowhere do we know that this is a naturally good relationship.
Most important, it should not be too complicated for a father to understand get along ahin, get along aher, violence, especially against a parent is just wrong and assur and needs to be stopped! If the relationship can't tolerate the father asserting his authority it is not a good relationship.

Dandelion1

Tue, Oct 31 2017, 3:02 pm

All we know from the post is that Op and her son need help and assistance from a medical professional ASAP.

There is no point in debating the relative effectiveness of psychiatric hospitalizations, medication, and/or wilderness programs.

We know absolutely nothing of the situation except that the physical violence that op describes is very extreme and an immediate indication that a doctor must be consulted.

Op, do you need names of doctors? Are you able to tell us the approximate area you are in? Your child needs to be seen, together with yourself and your husband, so that the situation can be evaluated accurately.

I wish you and your family the best, and I am so sorry for the pain you are all going through.

mommy3b2c

Tue, Oct 31 2017, 3:42 pm

little neshamala wrote:

I would say, " your son is kicking your wife and youre allowing it to happen?!!!!'"

Besides, most of the letter was your imagination. The op did not say anything to indicate half of the things you wrote.

little neshamala

Tue, Oct 31 2017, 3:45 pm

chaiz wrote:

Correct. Nowhere does it say excelling, all we know is hes doing well. I was just giving an example of what could wasily be the case

So all im saying is that its mind boggling that with the limited information that we have about a 12 year old, and the fact that OPs parenting style includes withholding food and taking every last one of his things away, everyone is going ape that she is being abused.

Yes of course her husband has to be on board with her. Of course. But that doesnt change the rest of the situation.

little neshamala

Tue, Oct 31 2017, 3:49 pm

mommy3b2c wrote:

Yes it was my imagination. Op did not give us enough information to go one way or the other.

And im not saying the father's silence is appropriate. Its not. Its terrible, misguided parenting at best. This father needs to step in.

What im trying to say is that just because a 12 year old gets physical, does not NECESSARILY mean there is something wrong with him. There might be...there might not be.

BUT.

A mother who withholds food and takes away all her childs thing as "parenting" is hurting her child. End of story.

So all we know is....we have a mother who is hurting her child. And we have a child who is hurting his mother.

amother

Fuchsia

Tue, Oct 31 2017, 3:52 pm

amother wrote:

Fuschia, this so special of you. You really feel the caring and love in your words. I second every word you said and I hope that I second all the care you feel for OP.

Thank you, "Plum" for your kind words.
It's only B'ezras Hashem.
BTW, after I submitted my post, I reread it, and edited it: you might not like every word there now that I changed it a bit Wink

amother

Gold

Tue, Oct 31 2017, 3:52 pm

Please please do not call the police. I am horrified that so many mothers would have a young boy committed. Doing that to your own child should only be done as a very last resort. And for all those who say OP is being abused and she's in a dangerous situation, most boys at 12 years old are not physically bigger or stronger than an adult woman.

little neshamala

Tue, Oct 31 2017, 3:54 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

Sorry but this man sounds like a wuss. A normal man does not let anyone physically hurt his wife if he can possibly stop it.

Yes he does. And therfore? Doesnt change anything. I know many wuss fathers.

naomi2

Tue, Oct 31 2017, 4:41 pm

Op, I have reread all your responses and concluded that You need major help.
Your interactions with him are escalating the violence. He is a child and is in a lot of pain. Please get professional help for yourself. And then for him. Give back all his things, only speak positively with him, and set the reset button in your relationship. He is in just as much pain as you are.
Also, to all you people expecting the father to be harsh with the child- the father tells the son it's not OK if he punishes or gets angry, the child will have a relationship with neither parent. That is way worse.
I wonder how a letter from the pov of the son would look...

amother

Indigo

Tue, Oct 31 2017, 4:43 pm

Sounds like things are escalating into a power struggle. Please don't take away his supper... my parents used to that. It was a ridiculous punishment- starving a kid and has nothing to do with anything. Go for therapy and learn how to effectively deal with him or even order a book from amazon but this sounds healthy for no one.

sequoia

Tue, Oct 31 2017, 4:47 pm

naomi2 wrote:

Would you say that if a teenage boy was hitting you in your own home?

SixOfWands

Tue, Oct 31 2017, 4:50 pm

little neshamala wrote:

Dear Abba,

Your son is working his hardest to control himself at school. When he comes home, though, he loses it, and attacks the person he knows will love him no matter what. That's not you. You're not there. You're not the one dealing with discipline and homework and the other kids. Does he feel safe with you? Or are you just another person he's holding it all in for, because he doesn't feel safe with you?

How's about you be home every afternoon, and deal with it. You deal with the discipline. You deal with the other kids. Give it a month or two. Meanwhile, Ima will be out of the house. Let me know how it goes.