Gun Control | Imamother

Mayflower

Tue, Nov 07 2017, 6:50 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

I think this cartoon explains the anti-gun control people:

http://www.themainewire.com/20.....mies/

1. Why isn't this logic applied to drugs?

2. It doesn't seem to quite work this way though. A lot of mass shootings were carried out by people who legally owned their guns. You can speculate that they would have been able to get these guns illegally if more gun regulations would have been in place, but it would be just that: speculation.

I found this chart very striking:

(Source: NYT)

nylon

Tue, Nov 07 2017, 8:13 am

This particular case is difficult because it's been acknowledged that he was not supposed to be able to buy a gun. The Air Force did not correctly report him to the FBI. Apparently, there's been issues at the USAF about this, they don't understand which cases are supposed to be reported. All dishonorable discharges are, but certain other cases, like this, qualify. This massacre was in some way foreseeable and preventable. He was an unstable man with a history of violence who should not have had a weapon.

It's easy to say "well the Air Force needs to do its job". But the background check system doesn't work very well: the databases aren't linked, and private sales aren't subject to checks (aka the gun show loophole). But people have resisted even changing that.

Would this prevent every mass shooting? No. But background checks might prevent other crimes. Mass shootings get the publicity.

Also, some gun enthusiasts promote unsafe practices. The idea that you're going to stop crimes with a gun leads to people carrying loaded weapons, or leaving loaded weapons accessible at home. This is how children get shot by accident because they decide to play with a gun that is left available. It doesn't matter if you tell them not to play with it. The only safe way to have guns around children (outside of supervised shooting situations like target practice) is to keep it locked up.

zohar

Tue, Nov 07 2017, 8:43 am

Ted Cruz pointed out something interesting. In 2010, around 80k(!) people lied on their forms that they were allowed to purchase fire arms. That's a felony. And only 44 were prosecuted. If more people were prosecuted, maybe it would be more of deterrent for people who should not have guns even trying to get them the legal rout. Obviously, they will still be available on the black market. Guns are not easily regulated and are easily manufactured. I think it's really important that the good guys are able to own guns and not just criminals.

zohar

Tue, Nov 07 2017, 8:49 am

I also watched an interview with the guy who shot and chased the shooter. He said if he did not have an ar15 and only a revolver or small handgun, he would not have been able to shoot the guy affectively. Also, when he was in the chase, he checked his magazine and realized he only had two shots left (when he heard the shots, his gun was not loaded and he grabbed whatever he could hold). This is why there shouldn't be limits on ammo either. Gun control advocates always say, why do you need so many rounds. This is why.

amother

Plum

Tue, Nov 07 2017, 9:24 am

I am only another because people who know me IRL know this about me.... I know how to shoot and am quite vocal about 2A.
Please read "Guns, Crime and Freedom" by John Lott or his other books on the topic. He brings in REAL data with the actual numbers and not just a chart trying to persuade you without explaining the criteria for it.
Years ago there was a billboard that had a number counter on it and it supposedly counted how many died due to gun violence. What they didnt say was that included suicide (and if there were no guns available people will still commit suicide, just by other means) and gang warfare. Gangs deal with all sorts of illegal activities. Drugs, SX trafficking.... Throwing on an additional 20 years for gun usage by someone going to jail for life without parole (or multiple life sentences) won't be a deterrent. It doesnt change anything for him.

This guy should have been on the "national no buy list" as people are wont to ask for. However the Air Force messed up!! Even if he wrote he was never convicted before, he still should have been banned and it shown up on the list. What new laws would have stopped this? Now they are required by law to put these people on the list who were already required to be on it? Enforce what we have. Don't make insane new laws that won't prevent anything.
Laws about ammo clips won't work in the days of 3D printers. Black markets. Gun trafficking from the borders...

SixOfWands

Tue, Nov 07 2017, 9:35 am

zohar wrote:

Do you really think that guns are easily manufactured? That someone is making guns in her basement right now?

And do you really think that a good guy with a gun can stop a mass shooting? There were plenty of good guys with guns in Las Vegas, but they couldn't stop a sniper. The Texas murderer was confronted by someone with a rifle when he left the church, so someone was clearly nearby; didn't help.

The US needs comprehensive gun controls, but the powerful lobby of the NRA opposes ANY gun restrictions.

First and foremost, we need education and safety to be a necessary component of gun ownership. You need to pass a test, and to show you have insurance, to drive a car. The same should be true in the US (and it is in some places, not all). A relative who frequently attends gun shows tells me that he sees people purchasing guns who have no clue how to use them. This should not happen. Will this stop mass shootings? No. But it will reduce gun-related accidents. According to USA Today, 1 kid in the US dies EVERY DAY due to gun accidents. I'd be happy to reduce that number, even if we accomplish nothing else.

Next, we need to try to limit straw sales. That needs to be another part of licensing. Amother passes her licensing course, proves she has a safe means to store her gun. Kol hakavod, she can purchase a gun. But in 3 years, or 5, she needs to provide proof that she still owns the gun, or that she has sold it and transferred ownership in a manner that alerted the government, to a new owner who is licensed. Granted, this will take a long time to be effective. But if Amother is going to be convicted of a felony for straw sales, we can eventually reduce them. And straw sales are a primary means of criminals getting weapons.

Waiting periods. Banning weapons like the AR-15 and high-capacity magazines. National databases for background checks.

All of these things need to be done.

But they won't. If they weren't done after Sandy Hook, they never will be.

water_bear88

Tue, Nov 07 2017, 11:41 am

amother wrote:

There's good evidence many suicides are impulsive, and access to firearms dramatically increases the fatality of a suicide attempt. At the least, parents of minors should be charged with criminal neglect for leaving firearms accessible to their children, whether there's a death in the house or not. (No, that won't stop the mass killings, but shouldn't prevention of suicides matter too?)

amother

Plum

Tue, Nov 07 2017, 12:37 pm

Ruchel wrote:

It's useless with those pro gun posters. They'll bring up the worst of the worst to shock and "convince" you. They'll send you pics of your own citizens dead, even, or send you a pic pretending it's your own citizens when it's another crime. I've learned to block those who insist when they're not cowardly (anonymous) too.

Any different from the anti gun fanatics who blame every legal gun owner, who safely locks it up, for every tragedy? The fact that I know of a dozen or more owners who never had any accident happen in their home, who never had a near miss, who practice safe gun ownership 24/7.... and want to be allowed to keep it, are blamed for Sandy Hook, Vegas and any other tragedy done by someone mentally unstable...

When numbers like "every X minutes a kid dies from a gun" are being thrown about without taking into account criminal usage (gangs in Chicago for one) versus accidents or other deaths?
I have seen calculations when they take into account military deaths as per of the "yearly death toll by guns". Especially as 17 year olds can join so then they count in the "child death" category as well. Rolling Eyes

amother

Plum

Tue, Nov 07 2017, 12:40 pm

Oh and anyone who says that mandatory waiting periods would have stopped this tragedy is wrong. He bought the guns about a year ago...
More laws won't fix this. Wider availability of mental health treatment should occur. Veterans need better care. He was dishonorably discharged but mental health should still be taken care of...
VA waiting times are crazy. For the average citizen we need more clinics available. More hospitalization possibilities. I know of someone who was assaulting others due to his mental illness. Certifiable crazy as some might say- talking to trees, hearing voices telling him to set fires, break into places etc. family repeatedly tried to get them admitted for long term treatment. After the psych hold they might be lucky to get him a few day extension but he still gets booted to the curb before the medication has a chance to work.
Mental health care will fix things. More laws won't.

SixOfWands

Tue, Nov 07 2017, 1:18 pm

amother wrote:

I'm glad that you're a responsible gun owner. Wouldn't you like to see everyone who owns guns be equally responsible?

You're spouting the NRA line -- if you control anything, then responsible gun owners will be denied their right to own a gun. But that's not the case, any more than auto licensing denies the rights of safe drivers.

In any case, the statistic I cited referred to firearms ACCIDENTS killing children. Not gangs. Not drive by shootings. ACCIDENTS. For example, from Jan. 1, 2014, to June 30, 2016, nearly 90 3-year-olds were killed or injured in accidental shootings, the vast majority of which were self-inflicted. Now, if you're a safe gun owner, your gun is stored in a manner that makes that impossible. Why don't you want the same for your friends' kids, or for your kids when they visit friends' homes?

Safe gun owners should be on the front lines of demanding gun control. They know what guns can do. But they're not. So yes, I blame you. And I blame every person, every politician, who opposes gun control.

MiracleMama

Tue, Nov 07 2017, 1:23 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

I'm glad that you're a responsible gun owner. Wouldn't you like to see everyone who owns guns be equally responsible?

You're spouting the NRA line -- if you control anything, then responsible gun owners will be denied their right to own a gun. But that's not the case, any more than auto licensing denies the rights of safe drivers.

In any case, the statistic I cited referred to firearms ACCIDENTS killing children. Not gangs. Not drive by shootings. ACCIDENTS. For example, from Jan. 1, 2014, to June 30, 2016, nearly 90 3-year-olds were killed or injured in accidental shootings, the vast majority of which were self-inflicted[/b]. Now, if you're a safe gun owner, your gun is stored in a manner that makes that impossible. Why don't you want the same for your friends' kids, or for your kids when they visit friends' homes?

Safe gun owners should be on the front lines of demanding gun control. They know what guns can do. But they're not. So yes, I blame you. And I blame every person, every politician, who opposes gun control.

How is this legislated and enforced?

SixOfWands

Tue, Nov 07 2017, 1:29 pm

MiracleMama wrote:

How is this legislated and enforced?

(1) Education on safe gun ownership and safe gun storage.

(2) Before purchase of gun, gun owner must prove that s/he has a safe storage place, be that a gun safe or otherwise. And since I suggest that licenses to own guns must be renewed, showing that the gun is still in the owner's possession, the same would be required of the gun safe.

(3) With a link to homeowners and renters insurance, which would allow insurers to check this. Much the way they check for, eg, trampolines.

Perfect? No. Of course not. Either is automobile licensing. But perfection must not be the enemy of helpful.

amother

Pearl

Tue, Nov 07 2017, 1:38 pm

southernbubby wrote:

All that is nice and good but there are currently estimated to be at least 90 million guns in circulation. Good luck getting rid of all that or curbing the use or maintaining safe keeping. It would be nice if police departments had storage lockers so that residents could keep guns there until needed and then returned to the lockers but that takes lots of money, space and manpower to create and maintain that.

You mean like if there is a home invasion, I take a ride to the police station to get my gun so I can protect myself? Rolling Eyes