Will a Moore win wreck the GOP?

leah233

Wed, Dec 13 2017, 1:41 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

I disagree.

People voted for Trump because they believed in him, and wanted his brand of governance. They got what they wanted.

snip

People really believe that giving tax breaks to the wealthiest Americans and to corporations, while rolling back medical benefits to the working poor (“We're going to have to get back next year at entitlement reform, which is how you tackle the debt and the deficit.... Frankly, it's the health care entitlements that are the big drivers of our debt, so we spend more time on the health care entitlements — because that's really where the problem lies, fiscally speaking.” Paul Ryan, December 2017) is how you best serve the people of this country. I'm not looking forward to seeing it.

I voted against Trump.( I wrote someone in.) I oppose the Republican tax plan. Obamacare (with some tweaking) if from the few things Obama did that I support.

Even so I'm happy Trump won and Hilary isn't president. Not because I remotely like Trump it is just that the democrats have alienated me so much more.

southernbubby

Wed, Dec 13 2017, 1:41 pm

Jeanette wrote:

Quote:

If Jones wins, it will be seen in Alabama, the South, and much of the rest of the country as a case of liberal elites once again condescendingly telling others what’s best for them. And that will go a long way to energize conservatives in 2018.

Pretty condescending to tell Alabama that their democratically elected representative could not possibly be a legitimate choice.

Yeah but Jeanette, look at the very high percentage that did vote for Moore. Being that you were not in the Moore camp, what would you say about the intelligence of those who voted for him? Until Moore beat Luther Strange in the primaries, Alabamians who wanted a Republican alternative to Moore but they chose a candidate that even Trump felt had a lesser chance of winning. So what do you make of the intelligence of nearly half the voters there, if you saw no merit in voting for Moore? Jones won by a small margin and not by a landslide. And one of the things that helped him win was in getting a large turnout of black female voters. One of the reasons that Hillary lost is because those voters stayed home. Does that behavior not lead to the belief that these people can't act in their own best interests?

Look at the governor of Kentucky and how he is viewed by everyone except the extreme RW Republicans. Would you say that Kentucky is inhabited mostly by geniuses?

What I am basically saying is, these places get condescended to because nobody considers them to be capable of self-determination. Then comes in some liberal politician who tells them that he will keep their entitlements in place and they can go back to their hiding places until the next election. I am not even sure that is in their best interest either.

southernbubby

Wed, Dec 13 2017, 1:45 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I think that people voted for Trump because he made huge rallies and did the right kind of marketing. I don't think the average person had a clue about the issues, and it probably didn't sway them one way or another.

Which is a very sad commentary on the state of America today.

And I have a sneaking suspicion that most of his voters were just fine with the way he talks. Unfortunately.

If not for his braggadocios personality, some of what he has accomplished would be more apparent and appreciated. Even Time magazine, which is liberal (we redeemed our Spirit air points on it) said that the Trump presidency is not without significant accomplishments but he puts himself out there as such a buffoon, and tweets such nonsense, that no one thinks that he is capable of handling the job.

Jeanette

Wed, Dec 13 2017, 2:01 pm

southernbubby wrote:

In any close election there are competing groups of voters who support their candidate for different reasons.

It's not condescending to have an opinion about who would make a better senator, even if it's not from your state. I think Alabama made the right choice here. What IS condescending is to imply that they made this choice only because the liberal media told them to. It's no less condescending than to argue that Moore voters made their choice because they live in a fox news bubble.

It's not at all clear to me that Doug Jones message was "they can keep their entitlements in place and they can go back to their hiding places until the next election." That's pretty insulting too if you think about it.

southernbubby

Wed, Dec 13 2017, 2:35 pm

Jeanette wrote:

Did you read the sentence that I wrote before that no one considers them to have enough self-determination?

Do people who often don't show up at polls show self-determination?

Do people who are living in poverty need politicians who will simply promise them a flow of entitlements or do they need politicians who will lead them into self-determination? How does my neighborhood or yours work? Do we just sit back and let the elected officials run things however they like whether it is good for us or not?

Fox

Wed, Dec 13 2017, 3:03 pm

Jeanette wrote:

Quote:

Pretty condescending to tell Alabama that their democratically elected representative could not possibly be a legitimate choice.

Which is precisely why I believed that the media should have piped down a little. Southern hatred for carpetbaggers and their fellow travelers exceeds hatred for conservatives, liberals, communists, and even Roman Catholics.

I don't think it particularly matters who won this particular election; I'm only pointing out how various players are going to spin the outcome for their own purposes. And in terms of spin, everybody got something.

SixOfWands

Wed, Dec 13 2017, 3:37 pm

Fox wrote:

Carpetbaggers, in this case, apparently means those uppity black and brown folk who elected Jones. (You know, the folks who were slaves the last time that Moore thought America was great.)

Unlike Moore, Jones didn't rely on people from outside of Alabama until the last couple of days. He addressed issues of interest to Alabama. Like him or not, he is a true son of Alabama.

I'm sure you'd love to keep spinning away about how wonderful it is that Deep Red Alabama elected a Democrat, and how that's really going to help your beloved Trump. Because you believe that no matter what happens in the world, it shows that only you and the folks at Breitbart and 4chan, know what's going on, and that Democrats are delusional morons. Well, that's not what this election showed. It showed the power of people of color, even in the deep south. And it showed the deep disillusionment of many even in Trump's biggest support base.

SixOfWands

Wed, Dec 13 2017, 3:44 pm

southernbubby wrote:

What do I think of people who voted for a candidate who refused to obey direct orders of the courts of this country to remove Xtian symbols from the Alabama courts? For a candidate who said that the last time America was great was when blacks were slaves? For a candidate who said that Jews are going to burn in h3ll for not accepting J3su5? Who said that gay people should be in prison?

I'm not going to tell you they're stupid. I'm going to tell you they're bigots.

southernbubby

Wed, Dec 13 2017, 4:15 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

Why are the two mutually exclusive? Are they not both?

And then there are people who are devoted to their party, regardless of who the candidate is.

Does that automatically make them bigots or just stupid? What if it really is in their own best interests, then what does it make them, selfish? Or do we expect people to vote against their own best interests?

Fox

Wed, Dec 13 2017, 4:31 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

What on earth are you talking about? And why so much anger and so little humor? Everybody ought to be delighted with this outcome.

Carpetbaggers didn't elect Jones. By definition, so-called carpetbaggers can't vote in Alabama. I am simply pointing out the deep antipathy that exists in Alabama and elsewhere in the South for liberal Northerners -- particularly Northern journalists who made their opinions clear and have a long collective reputation for insulting Southerners. Whether that antipathy is justified or not, it will most certainly be a talking point in future elections.

I am also cautioning against interpreting Jones's victory as evidence that Alabama is suddenly liberal. This is not "Breitbart and 4chan" -- this is a slew of Pew Organization polls that show that most Alabamians are pretty conservative on a variety of issues. Defeating a potentially embarrassing, loose-cannon Republican at the polls doesn't necessarily represent a shift in opinions.

Just as an example, the role of black women in electing Jones was mentioned upthread. But black women are also quite likely to be religiously commited and believe that abortion is morally wrong. Like most Americans, they generally don't want to see Roe v. Wade overturned, but that doesn't mean they share Jones's or the Democratic Party line on the topic.

As for the Democrats being "delusional morons," I actually see them more as victims. Which I suppose would make the many post-modernists among them quite satisfied. The country elected a Democratic President in 2008 and again in 2012, and he allowed his party to flounder. He put his own "legacy" above building a strong party; he exerted no leadership whatsoever in grooming strong new candidates; he allowed the DNC to collapse into a club of cronies; and he stood by while the party embraced values at considerable variance to those of actual voters.

Sorry, but those are the facts, and plenty of Democrats concur. Hating Trump and constantly accusing people of racism or implying that they are racist is simply not enough to revitalize the Democratic Party.

SixOfWands

Wed, Dec 13 2017, 5:00 pm

Fox wrote:

Ah,yes. more straw men about those stupid Dems, and how you're the only one smart enough to understand.

No one -- NO ONE -- has interpreted Jones' victory as a sign that Alabama is liberal in any way, shape or form. They see it as a sign of disillusionment with Trump even among conservatives. But of course you put up that straw man of those stupid Dems!

But I'm sorry you don't see someone who says that you're going to burn in h3ll for being a Jew as a bigot. Or the bigotry of talking about the good old days when blacks were slaves. Those are the actual "facts." And it has nothing to do with hating Trump. It has to do with Roy Moore's actual words. He claims that all US law should be based on the Xtian bible. When asked when he thought America was last great, Moore replied, "I think it was great at the time when families were united — even though we had slavery — they cared for one another.... Our families were strong, our country had a direction." "He referred to murders and shootings as "punishment" for "our presumptuous sins" including being gay. In 2005, he said “homosexual conduct should be illegal,” a view which his campaign chair said he "probably" still held. THESE are the facts, and these are the reasons that the people of Alabama rejected Moore.

And you're right. I have no sense of humor when it comes to your patronizing and condescending rhetoric.

southernbubby

Wed, Dec 13 2017, 5:43 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

Here is a really good article that states why Moore lost and Republicans are on their way down.
http://nymag.com/daily/intelli.....ar%29

Take the time to read it because it says that Moore's liaisons with teenage girls were a large factor for his loss. I don't need to reiterate what the article said, but the black community has come to terms with the fact that they could afford to be complacent like they were when Obama was in office. The black community obviously rose to the occasion, although a very small amount of them actually supported Moore.

Moore's bigotry was probably a factor with well educated people who rejected him en masse but this article, which is from a liberal website, didn't specifically state that. What does look like is happening is that eventually Alabama will be as liberal as California. The young people today have little need for someone who promotes values that they consider antiquated, and that GOP tax plan is flopping miserably with the young who are starting out at low wage jobs. If the GOP wants to win an election, they should start with somebody who isn't as controversial but at the moment, very little of what they are doing will excite the next generation.

Fox

Wed, Dec 13 2017, 8:55 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

But I'm sorry you don't see someone who says that you're going to burn in h3ll for being a Jew as a bigot. Or the bigotry of talking about the good old days when blacks were slaves. Those are the actual "facts." And it has nothing to do with hating Trump. It has to do with Roy Moore's actual words. He claims that all US law should be based on the Xtian bible. When asked when he thought America was last great, Moore replied, "I think it was great at the time when families were united — even though we had slavery — they cared for one another.... Our families were strong, our country had a direction." "He referred to murders and shootings as "punishment" for "our presumptuous sins" including being gay. In 2005, he said “homosexual conduct should be illegal,” a view which his campaign chair said he "probably" still held. THESE are the facts, and these are the reasons that the people of Alabama rejected Moore.

And you're right. I have no sense of humor when it comes to your patronizing and condescending rhetoric.

You seem to think that bigotry is some kind of horrible, beyond-the-pale sin; the absolute worst thing that can be said about a person. It's not. Bigotry is simply intolerance of others with different characteristics or opinions. Virtually all of us, in one way or another, are bigots. And nothing bad happens if someone calls you a bigot. You don't wake up with a skin rash or a yeast infection.

Bigotry among public officials has been a poor predictor of performance in the past. Richard Nixon was a tremendous anti-Semite -- at the same time he was doing more for Israel than his predecessors and opening up the DOJ to Jews. Lyndon Johnson was clearly a racist -- yet he signed civil rights legislation for the most cynical of motives.

I'm genuinely confused as to why Moore's bigotry is so upsetting to you. He doesn't believe anything that should shock us, however wrong we might believe him to be. Part of the explicit theology of Orthodox Christianity as well as even mainline Protestant sects is, in fact, that "salvation" can only come through beliefs which Jews do not share. Large percentages of Muslims believe that homosexuality should be illegal. Strong nuclear families are the biggest issue in the Hotep movement; they regularly equate welfare and slavery.

Which brings us to the key argument against Moore:

Moore was a bad choice based on his performance as an Alabama Supreme Court justice. His unwillingness in that role to obey the decisions of higher courts was the real problem. Whether his refusal was based on intolerance or sheer cussedness or voices in his head makes no difference.

In fact, his alleged bigotry should never have even come up. Making it part of the case against Moore suggests that voters could have overlooked his refusal to obey higher courts had his actions been based on something other than socially-unacceptable opinions.

As for the name-calling, go right ahead. While I obviously disagree that I am patronizing or condescending -- at least no more so than anyone else -- I notice that it only becomes a glaring personality flaw when someone doesn't like what I'm saying.

Jeanette

Thu, Dec 14 2017, 9:21 am

Fox wrote:

Republicans nominated this guy, supported him, defended him, campaigned for him and voted for him. But somehow it's the democrats' fault for focusing on the wrong flaws.

southernbubby

Thu, Dec 14 2017, 9:46 am

Jeanette wrote:

Republicans nominated this guy, supported him, defended him, campaigned for him and voted for him. But somehow it's the democrats' fault for focusing on the wrong flaws.

but let's not forget about all of those Republicans who voted for Jones and even Fox news website has commentary that Moore would have made toast of the GOP, together with Trump

and BTW, Moore has not conceded, partially because the military absentee ballots still have not been counted and the race was very close.

As far as bigotry goes, sometimes it appeals to people, such as how Trump has gotten support from those who usually don't gain much from having a Republican in office and it appears that if they earn under $40k, they are really sorry that they drank the kool aid.