Miraculously our ancestors chose to carry on the Torah legac

Mevater

Wed, Dec 20 2017, 11:42 am

We see how the recent sudden tragic deaths of multiple family members at the same time, shakes us to the core. Even those who never met the family are shocked and devastated and it greatly effects them for a long time, if not forever.

And yet our ancestors who just 70 years ago lived through the Holocaust, saw many of their family members perishing similarly, in much greater scale. They lived with the awareness that their family members were burned alive. Mass killings of Jews have been going on since Creation. Yes, all deaths are the end result of G-d's will, but the Holocaust deaths were not accidental and intentional. G-d clearly chose for Nazis to slaughter 6 million Jews.

While some Holocaust survivors went OTD, most did not, and Holocaust survivors chose to carry on the Torah legacy.

How remarkable it is that our ancestors carried on, after witnessing the mass killings, and they didnt blame and turn their anger towards G-d, instead they turned their energy towards rebuilding their lives (and if anything turned their anger towards the Nazis).

How do you explain it?

Not all Jews are equally resilient, but for the most part, are Jews uniquely resilient?

Is it because of their love of the Torah, or wanting to do what they thought would please their parents, or wanting to continue the lifestyle they were familiar with, before the war?

amother

Seafoam

Wed, Dec 20 2017, 11:56 am

Some just figured they would take it up with Hashem another time. If you don't think of Hashem as a vending machine, you don't leave religion because you don't like what you get.

I have to tell you that your characterization of prewar Europe is way off base. While there were frum communities, Jews were leaving religion in droves. There was an otd crisis of mass proportions. It was stopped in its tracks by the Holocaust, but it was there.

Mevater

Wed, Dec 20 2017, 12:06 pm

amother wrote:

There was an otd crisis of mass proportions. It was stopped in its tracks by the Holocaust, but it was there.

Im not familiar with others. In my family there was no one who went OTD in Europe.

And are you saying the Holocaust along with the horrors, had its benefits? Confused

amother

Seafoam

Wed, Dec 20 2017, 12:11 pm

Mevater wrote:

Im not familiar with others. In my family there was no one who went OTD in Europe.

And are you saying the Holocaust along with the horrors, had its benefits? Confused

Chas veshalom! I was saying that things were frozen in time. That's all.

Obviously I don't know about your family, but data is not the plural of anecdote. Just because something isn't part of your experience doesn't mean it's not true.

Mevater

Wed, Dec 20 2017, 12:17 pm

amother wrote:

Im not denying that there was movement away from religion in Europe. I think that was going on to a great degree in Germany, and to a lesser degree in some of the big cities of other European countries.

My question remains how throughout history, the mass killings of Jews hasnt moved most Jews away from belief in and observance of the Torah, and that is miraculous.

amother

Seafoam

Wed, Dec 20 2017, 12:32 pm

Mevater wrote:

No, Jews were leaving religion everywhere. To give just a single example that I know for sure, the Vizhnitzer Rebbe lived next door to a family that didn't keep kosher. (And the wife grew up not frum.)

I'm happy to believe the best of our people, but not at the expense of the facts. We still have plenty of role models.

Mevater

Wed, Dec 20 2017, 12:48 pm

amother wrote:

Whats the connection of Jews in pre-Holocaust Europe going OTD, whatever their numbers,

to my question of-

How was it that many post-Holocaust Jews who witnessed mass killing of Jews, and were aware of this going on throughout history, still choosed to remain frum and to happily follow the Torah?

BH5745

Wed, Dec 20 2017, 1:01 pm

For one thing people suffered as a community of millions during the holocaust. It's a horrific tragedy when one belongs to the 10-20% of Jews to survive a holocaust... but its psychologically speaking an entirely new level of devestation when one feels alone because their family was the only one to chas v'shalom experience a horrible tragedy. When one experiences a holocaust then looks around and seeds lo aleinu death and destruction everywhere and knows everyone is going through the same grief, it feels quite different from grieving and see happy, well-fed, affluent people everywhere who can't ppssibly imagine the trauma one feels from their own personal grief.

After the holocaust the Jewish people collectively felt a sense of mission and urgency to rebuild.

Mevater

Wed, Dec 20 2017, 1:13 pm

BH5745 wrote:

I agree with both points.

I agree its harder when its one family experiencing multiple deaths, living in a community with assorted suffering, but not suffering similarly.

I think both are miraculous when they dont buckle, though.

octopus

Wed, Dec 20 2017, 5:09 pm

BH5745 wrote:

The Jewish response to pain and suffering is to build. That is the secret of the Jewish people. I don't know which navi told the jewish ppl after the churban to take their pots and pans- meaning- you should go into galus and live life and build families. This is the only solace of the Jewish people. Building doesn't necessarily mean giving birth to families. It also means doing good works to perpetuate the names (l'iluy nishmas) of those that were lost. We all try to find meaning in our losses, and this gives the losses meaning. The ones that survived suffered terribly psychologically and were permanently damaged, but they built anyway.

PinkFridge

Wed, Dec 20 2017, 8:29 pm

octopus wrote:

This.
A local survivor, who has gone on to build a magnificent family, has said that he can't explain why he kept his faith. It was in his bones, from his parents and grandparents, but he has been the only frum person at survivor meetings, and he's told the other people there that their reaction is rational, he doesn't know if his is.
It's just what we do.
And don't forget our grandparents and great grandparents who left Europe before the war, and had to endure the tests of Shabbos and assimilation, without a strong infrastructure. Their decisions were miraculous too.

This thread, to me, is sending the message that it is crucial to work on our bitachon, I.e. emunah in practice. There are many ways to do this, but we need to keep the motor oiled so that if we are tested, Hashem yishmor, we will believe just that: Hashem yishmor. He will keep us going through whatever it is we're facing.

penguin

Wed, Dec 20 2017, 9:55 pm

I heard R' Efraim Wachsman speaking (it might have been at recent Agudah convention).
I apologize if I don't have this accurately, but to the best of my recollection:

R' Wachsman said he has a cousin who's high up in a very anti-religious party (could it be Yossi Sarid?). Anyhow, it seems they met & R' W told the cousin, do you know why I am religious and you're not? Not because I'm smarter than you. Because at some point your zaideh or elter zaideh found it too hard to be a Yid, so he gave up on religious observance, and mine stayed stubborn through all the troubles and persecutions.

So you need to realize that we religious Jews are all still religious because we're stubborn. And that's why in the end we're going to win in any battle with your philosophy.

PinkFridge

Thu, Dec 21 2017, 8:28 am

penguin wrote:

Yes. But it's more than stubborn. It's giving it over with a conviction that this is the real way to have meaning and happiness. I would have loved to met my great-grandparents, for many reasons but one is that my grandfather had such simchas hachaim and love for his Yiddishkeit, along with his deep convictions, and he spread it to everyone he met.

I am frum because of the heroic decisions my grandparents and their parents made under new and challenging circumstances, but I don't take anything for granted. I daven that my children should be shomer Shabbos and find joy in their Yiddishkeit. Just like my great-grandmother must have.