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-> Household Management
unexpected
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 Sun, Jan 14 2018, 7:53 pm
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I am not defending my own practice with my cleaning lady. I'm just saying that I don't think our cleaning help is being exploited by us. I think they are managing very well
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amother
Linen
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Sun, Jan 14 2018, 10:49 pm
| Amarante wrote: | I'm in Los Angeles where minimum wage is not as high as New York City but of course I pay at least the minimum wage and I would raise proportionately for a worker who was receiving the minimum wage prior to the raise since if they deserved to pay paid a certain amount above minimum wage prior to the raise, they still deserve the differential after the raise.
I can't deal with a justification that someone can't afford to pay a legal wage - let alone a wage that is a "living wage". What amount are we talking about that people are claiming they can't afford - $10 a week? And if someone is employing someone full time (I.e. 40 hours), certainly the employer should be in an economic position to pay a living wage. And all the twisting that someone isn't really an employee or is being paid off the books or they can take it or leave it because they are the ones accepting the wages - it's all just justification for economic exploitation of people who are generally not powerful and or generally desperate - no one cleans someone else's toilets given the choice of an easier better paying job.
I don't feel comfortable exploiting people who are in a bad economic situation. If someone isn't working out, hire someone else. But for the most part, I've found that if you treat people as you would want to be treated and not try to exploit them and squeeze out the last dime from them, there will be a mutually respectful relationship. |
So I guess she is fired. Now how is she better off? Some of us cannot afford that $10 you just seem to have loads of. Just because we may have a cleaning lady does not make us rich. I have a chronic medical condition that doesn’t let me do certain tasks. I had help because I could afford the few dollars it cost—- not the new forced raise. You must have lots of money: You write on here that you tip generously to everyone under the sun basically and pay above minimum wage plus raise everyone above minimum wage based on the hike.
In the real world most of us who work do not get a raise just because the lowest paid got a raise. They just now feel terrible that they basically lost money- prices on everything have gone up, service went down because employers are cutting jobs (if the job was worth $10 and now costs $12, employers find a way to cut those jobs. Automatic checkout?), the job market is tighter as no one is hiring... and their wages are stagnant. So even though some people have more physical cash in their pocket, they still cannot buy much more— prices have gone up with it. And those who made more than that just feel the crunch.
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Chayalle
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Mon, Jan 15 2018, 7:25 am
| Boca00 wrote: | | Yes, just gave her a raise this week to $12. |
I've been paying my housekeeper $12 an hour till now...but according to another amother on this site, she is now asking people for $15....
I have no idea what the min wage is in NJ.
I also serve her fresh pancakes and coffee on the job, as an added bonus.
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amother
Maroon
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Mon, Jan 15 2018, 7:59 am
| Chayalle wrote: | I've been paying my housekeeper $12 an hour till now...but according to another amother on this site, she is now asking people for $15....
I have no idea what the min wage is in NJ.
I also serve her fresh pancakes and coffee on the job, as an added bonus. |
A raise of three dollars is quite steep. I work and take help daily. We BH have a large family and I would find it very difficult to manage otherwise.
I would definitely try to find someone else if I was asked to give such a large raise.
I also agree that with the increase of minimum wage, I cut the hours I take help.
So if you only take a lady for a few hours a week, a raise may be manageable. However if you are providing the convenience of one house, with the work stretched over a few days, the cleaning help loses out with the increase.
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tichellady
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Mon, Jan 15 2018, 9:54 am
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I just want to clarify that I’m not a fan of minimum wage laws, but once they exist, I do plan on following them.
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Amarante
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Tue, Jan 16 2018, 6:50 am
| amother wrote: | So I guess she is fired. Now how is she better off? Some of us cannot afford that $10 you just seem to have loads of. Just because we may have a cleaning lady does not make us rich. I have a chronic medical condition that doesn’t let me do certain tasks. I had help because I could afford the few dollars it cost—- not the new forced raise. You must have lots of money: You write on here that you tip generously to everyone under the sun basically and pay above minimum wage plus raise everyone above minimum wage based on the hike.
In the real world most of us who work do not get a raise just because the lowest paid got a raise. They just now feel terrible that they basically lost money- prices on everything have gone up, service went down because employers are cutting jobs (if the job was worth $10 and now costs $12, employers find a way to cut those jobs. Automatic checkout?), the job market is tighter as no one is hiring... and their wages are stagnant. So even though some people have more physical cash in their pocket, they still cannot buy much more— prices have gone up with it. And those who made more than that just feel the crunch. |
You seem hostile to me because I choose to be generous to those who perform services for me - either because I don't want to do such services or because I can't do them.
Having a cleaning woman is a luxury however you in your personal situation choose to justify it as a necessity. People that I tip are doing things that they don't have to do - it's a service. When I couldn't afford to pay for services, I didn't use them rather than exploit people doing the service. Other on this website, I have not met people who think that cleaning help is a necessity - most of the people I encounter in the world don't have cleaning help unless they have a reasonable amount of discretionary income - not in a situation where $10 one way or another means there wouldn't be food on the table. They view cleaning help as a discretionary expense - a nice luxury.
I stand by my statements and view on economic exploitation.
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SixOfWands
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Tue, Jan 16 2018, 7:39 am
| Chayalle wrote: | I've been paying my housekeeper $12 an hour till now...but according to another amother on this site, she is now asking people for $15....
I have no idea what the min wage is in NJ.
I also serve her fresh pancakes and coffee on the job, as an added bonus. |
The minimum wage in New Jersey is $8.60 an hour, but Gov. Murphy ran on a pledge of raising it, eventually to $15 an hour.
At $8.60 an hour, working 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year (no vacation), a worker makes $17,888 a year.
In New Jersey, $27,350 per year for a family of 4 is considered “extremely low-income” (earning less than either 30 percent of the median income or the federal poverty line), and even $45,600 a year and still be considered “very low-income.”
I'm glad people here think that minimum wage is a wonderful income, and that people shouldn't be entitled to even that. My bracha is that those of you who think that's so much money should have to live on that, and see what its like.
ETA we have cleaning help once a week. I've no idea how many hours she's there. 4? 5? I know its not more than that. Sometimes not everything is done. We pay a flat $100 week, so its $20 to $25 an hour.
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33055
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Tue, Jan 16 2018, 8:20 am
| Amarante wrote: | You seem hostile to me because I choose to be generous to those who perform services for me - either because I don't want to do such services or because I can't do them.
Having a cleaning woman is a luxury however you in your personal situation choose to justify it as a necessity. People that I tip are doing things that they don't have to do - it's a service. When I couldn't afford to pay for services, I didn't use them rather than exploit people doing the service. Other on this website, I have not met people who think that cleaning help is a necessity - most of the people I encounter in the world don't have cleaning help unless they have a reasonable amount of discretionary income - not in a situation where $10 one way or another means there wouldn't be food on the table. They view cleaning help as a discretionary expense - a nice luxury.
I stand by my statements and view on economic exploitation. |
It is very strange. Here everyone has a cleaning lady. This seems to be what happens when necessities are paid for. Luxuries become necessities. Cleaning ladies are musts. Matching outfits are musts. Schools will accept less tuition, so the moms can afford help. It is a built-in line item on the financial aid forms.
New immigrants know they can get work immediately in the Jewish section. There seems to be an endless supply. I honestly don't think the minimum wage rate applies because of the supply. The increase doesn't effect rockland County in any event.
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shyshira
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Tue, Jan 16 2018, 8:37 am
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Minimum wage has increased from $10.40 to $11.10 in Rockland county, and is applicable to everyone who is employed there, regardless of labor supply.
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33055
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Tue, Jan 16 2018, 9:20 am
| shyshira wrote: | | Minimum wage has increased from $10.40 to $11.10 in Rockland county, and is applicable to everyone who is employed there, regardless of labor supply. |
Paying taxes, not committing fraud to get services, and coming into this country legally is applicable. No one is paying attention to the minimum wage law.
It is like the wild west. The rules are not being followed.
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shyshira
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Tue, Jan 16 2018, 9:32 am
| Squishy wrote: | Paying taxes, not committing fraud to get services, and coming into this country legally is applicable. No one is paying attention to the minimum wage law.
It is like the wild west. The rules are not being followed. |
You provided thoughts (and misinformation regarding no increase to minimum wage). I provided facts.
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Amarante
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Tue, Jan 16 2018, 9:37 am
| shyshira wrote: | | You provided thoughts (and misinformation regarding no increase to minimum wage). I provided facts. |
Not to put words in Squishy's mouth who is more than capable  but I interpreted her post as meaning that whatever the "law" is has no impact on Monsey/Rockland County because the community doesn't follow many laws so why would adherence to minimum wage be different.
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mha3484
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Tue, Jan 16 2018, 9:44 am
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Am I the only one who pays a flat rate? I am finding where I live (Chicago) more and more cleaning people charge a flat rate based on size of your home. It makes my life easier for sure to not quibble over hours.
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33055
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Tue, Jan 16 2018, 9:44 am
| shyshira wrote: | | You provided thoughts (and misinformation regarding no increase to minimum wage). I provided facts. |
I got the misinformation off the government website.
My thoughts are that it is immaterial because of the supply and the fact that the illegals themselves are not righteous. They break so many laws that I don't see them looking to have any enforced.
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33055
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Tue, Jan 16 2018, 9:45 am
| Amarante wrote: | | Not to put words in Squishy's mouth who is more than capable but I interpreted her post as meaning that whatever the "law" is has no impact on Monsey/Rockland County because the community doesn't follow many laws so why would adherence to minimum wage be different. |
Actually it is both communities who don't follow the laws.
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amother
Scarlet
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Tue, Jan 16 2018, 10:06 am
We run a center, so it would be pretty difficult to get by without cleaning help. We pay our cleaning help $18/hr, as that is what she asked for and that's the going rate in our area. That is what we've been paying her for 5+ years. When we're tight financially, we go with less cleaning or more time in between (paid) cleaning and push ourselves to do more. The only difference in pay comes Pesach time- she likes having all those hours and asked to take $15/hr. That way, she ends up getting more $$ than she would if we were paying $18 and using her less. We do give her a bonus every Pesach, in appreciation for all her hard work.
I actually don't know what I'd do if she'd ask for a wage increase. More than that would be a lot of money for us, but she has become a good friend, and I care deeply for her and her family, and I can't imagine letting her go and starting over. I guess we'll cross that bridge if we come to it.
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observer
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Tue, Jan 16 2018, 10:18 am
| Amarante wrote: | You seem hostile to me because I choose to be generous to those who perform services for me - either because I don't want to do such services or because I can't do them.
Having a cleaning woman is a luxury however you in your personal situation choose to justify it as a necessity. People that I tip are doing things that they don't have to do - it's a service. When I couldn't afford to pay for services, I didn't use them rather than exploit people doing the service. Other on this website, I have not met people who think that cleaning help is a necessity - most of the people I encounter in the world don't have cleaning help unless they have a reasonable amount of discretionary income - not in a situation where $10 one way or another means there wouldn't be food on the table. They view cleaning help as a discretionary expense - a nice luxury.
I stand by my statements and view on economic exploitation. |
The frum lifestyle is quite a busy one, and very understandable that extra cleaning help is needed, more than in other circles. We mothers juggle quite a lot with large households k'ah, and do waaay more than your average american mother.
So we get some cleaning help. Not because we're rolling in dough, many of us actually scrimp in many other areas to save money for cleaning help. We pinch pennies, don't buy takeout, don't subscribe to any weekly magazines, don't go on vacations, don't serve meat or salmon,
etc etc etc. just so we can afford some cleaning help which is so important with a large brood of little ones.
So we get cleaning help for a few hours a week (not talking about full time) and we pay for it. Yes, we pay our cleaning ladies. We don't exploit them. How is it exploiting them if we are paying them the going rate for this service?
Why would one need to "tip" the cleaning lady if you pay her for every minute? I fail to understand even where you are coming from...
Are you saying that if you can afford to pay a cleaning lady but can't afford to "tip" her, you have no right to have cleaning help?
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Amarante
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Tue, Jan 16 2018, 10:47 am
| observer wrote: | The frum lifestyle is quite a busy one, and very understandable that extra cleaning help is needed, more than in other circles. We mothers juggle quite a lot with large households k'ah, and do waaay more than your average american mother.
So we get some cleaning help. Not because we're rolling in dough, many of us actually scrimp in many other areas to save money for cleaning help. We pinch pennies, don't buy takeout, don't subscribe to any weekly magazines, don't go on vacations, don't serve meat or salmon,
etc etc etc. just so we can afford some cleaning help which is so important with a large brood of little ones.
So we get cleaning help for a few hours a week (not talking about full time) and we pay for it. Yes, we pay our cleaning ladies. We don't exploit them. How is it exploiting them if we are paying them the going rate for this service?
Why would one need to "tip" the cleaning lady if you pay her for every minute? I fail to understand even where you are coming from...
Are you saying that if you can afford to pay a cleaning lady but can't afford to "tip" her, you have no right to have cleaning help? |
Who said anything about tipping a cleaning woman?
The original post complained because I tipped other people generously and people have discussed minimum wages in terms of delivery people.
If I can't afford to tip someone what is the acceptable rate for services - I.e. delivery or eating in a restaurant, then I can't afford that experience and I forego it. When I couldn't afford a cleaning woman, I didn't have a cleaning woman - end of story. Now I can afford one and I recognize that it's something that I am lucky to be able to afford. I also recognize that most people I have interacted with in the world don't have cleaning help. I made do and that's what most people do - they make do and recognize what is a necessity and what is a luxurious discretionary expense and are grateful that they can afford it.
And with all due respect but many people lead busy lives and would love to not have to clean their house when they come home from work or whatever, but they don't because they feel they can't afford it. So they adjust and they let things go or figure out a system. It is really only on this website have I learned the frum lifestyle somehow turns what are considered to be luxuries necessities. If you can afford something, that's wonderful but don't complain that paying your help a living wage - or the minimum wage - is taking food out of your children's mouths. Or that other people paying a living wage to their cleaning woman are making things difficult because then you have to pay a living wage.
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amother
Indigo
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Tue, Jan 16 2018, 10:50 am
| mha3484 wrote: | | Am I the only one who pays a flat rate? I am finding where I live (Chicago) more and more cleaning people charge a flat rate based on size of your home. It makes my life easier for sure to not quibble over hours. |
No that’s the norm in northern New Jersey too, about 100-150 a house flat rate.
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Amarante
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Tue, Jan 16 2018, 10:59 am
| amother wrote: | | No that’s the norm in northern New Jersey too, about 100-150 a house flat rate. |
It's very much the norm and is based on bedrooms and baths especially if one is either using a service or has a long term relationship with the cleaning woman.
It makes much more sense since the worker has incentive to be as productive as possible and the employer just has to judge whether they are satisfied with the job done - and not have to wonder whether the employee is working as quickly as they would like - or listening to music or talking on the phone or eating or whatever.
Do the job for a price that is considered to be fair by both sides and why worry about anything else.
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