Parnassah comes from hashem.

amother

Jetblack

Mon, Jul 30 2018, 12:40 am

Leriem wrote:

No it does not contradict the facts I see. A Rebbe just bought a house across the street from me for $75,000 and is practically gutting it and renovating...where’d he get the money from??? And my cousin who is a doctor is barely making a living because of high malpractice insurance and other factors. That’s just one example, I can give you money. Do you not believe the concept that Hashem decides on Rosh Hashana how much each person will get? If it’s so “logical” as you believe that doctors will make a lot and Rebbeim will make less, why does Hashem decide every year? He has many ways to give someone at a low paying job money (lottery, inheritance, etc.) While we believe the world always works according to nature, it really doesn’t.

There is nothing in nature that says that a doctor will be more financially successful than a Rebbe. Who are you arguing with? What are you arguing?

Where did "logical" come from?

Do you think your cousin went into medicine to seek out wealth?

imasoftov

Mon, Jul 30 2018, 7:57 am

Leriem wrote:

Did you ever learn that on Rosh Hashana Hashem decides how much each person will get that year?

As well as other opinions, they appear together in the Gemara, Rosh Hashanah 16a

דתניא הכל נידונים בר"ה וגזר דין שלהם נחתם ביוה"כ דברי ר"מ ר' יהודה אומר הכל נידונין בר"ה וגזר דין שלהם נחתם כל אחד ואחד בזמנו בפסח על התבואה בעצרת על פירות האילן בחג נידונין על המים ואדם נידון בר"ה וגזר דין שלו נחתם ביוה"כ

The Gemara explains: As it is taught in a baraita: All are judged on Rosh HaShana, and their sentence is sealed on Yom Kippur; this is the statement of Rabbi Meir. Rabbi Yehuda says: All are judged on Rosh HaShana, and their sentence is sealed each in its own time: On Passover the sentence is sealed concerning grain; on Shavuot concerning fruits that grow on a tree; on the festival of Sukkot they are judged concerning water; and mankind is judged on Rosh HaShana, and the sentence is sealed on Yom Kippur.

ר' יוסי אומר אדם נידון בכל יום שנאמר (איוב ז, יח) ותפקדנו לבקרים רבי נתן אומר אדם נידון בכל שעה שנא' (איוב ז, יח) לרגעים תבחננו

Rabbi Yosei says: A person is judged every day, and not just once a year, as it is stated: “You visit him every morning” (Job 7:18), meaning that every morning an accounting is made and a judgment is passed. Rabbi Natan says: A person is judged every hour, as it is stated: “You try him every moment” (Job 7:18).

amother

Babyblue

Mon, Jul 30 2018, 8:12 am

imasoftov wrote:

How do you understand this? It's difficult to say that we go into rosh hashana with a completely blank slate and that hashems decree is not continuous from previous years. For most people, that is indeed the case.

amother

Aquamarine

Mon, Jul 30 2018, 8:20 am

Leriem wrote:

Maybe the rebbe is in debt up to his eyeballs and the doctor is contributing to his retirement fund. I don't know what goes on in other people's lives.

As much as it's true that Hashem can send money in all sorts of ways, the world functions according to the rules that Hashem made.

Why is it that with health or shidduchim, no one sits back and waits for goodies to roll in, but when it comes to money, they think they don't have to exert themselves?

amother

Babyblue

Mon, Jul 30 2018, 8:34 am

amother wrote:

Exactly. If someone is c'vs sick and the best doctor is 5 hours away, the sick person will travel to see the very best. In other words they will make extra hishtadlus. For some reason when it comes to money, some believe that extra hishtadlus doesn't often lead to extra money and they can sit back and not put forth the extra hishtadlus. Then to prove their point that extra hishtadlus isn't necessary, they find a person who doesn't try that hard and is doing well. There, that proves you don't need extra hishtadlus. Meanwhile, the facts are so clear that in segments of society where people don't put an emphasis on schooling and getting good jobs, the poverty rate is off the charts.

Mommyg8

Mon, Jul 30 2018, 9:25 am

amother wrote:

Excuse my cynism, but isn't it just now on another thread that someone is discussing the designer names that is de rigueur in one of these insulated societies that don't speak English?

Mommyg8

Mon, Jul 30 2018, 9:28 am

amother wrote:

Well, most people do think so. But I think that becoming a Rebbe IS reasonable hishtadlus. And it just happens that I was thinking that I do know some Rabbeim who are at least quite comfortable. But of course, many are not, so there is certainly a correlation that can't be brushed away.

amother

Jetblack

Mon, Jul 30 2018, 9:32 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Excuse my cynism, but isn't it just now on another thread that someone is discussing the designer names that is de rigueur in one of these insulated societies that don't speak English?

Not speaking English does not equal not working hard.

Those designer bags don't just show up on peoples door steps. People make a business - have mazel and do well in their business... and purchase bags.

amother

Jetblack

Mon, Jul 30 2018, 9:36 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

No - its not 'natural' that a Doctor will make more money that a Rebbe. That said - if we are looking at salaries - the average pay for a doctor in the US is higher than that as a Rebbe. Salary is just one competent of how people get money in a bank account.

rydys

Mon, Jul 30 2018, 9:43 am

My brother told my father a vort (I don't know the source) related to medical care, but I think it applies to all areas.

The question was why do we not use the refuos that are mentioned in the Gemara although we know they worked for them?

The answer was that really everything, including refuah, comes from Hashem. What we, even the greatest doctors do, is really only hishtadlus.

What is hishtadlus? Doing something to the best of your ability and knowledge. When you have done that, Hashem "steps in" and makes whatever the outcome is, happen. Today we have so many advances in medical care that just doing what they did is not adequate hishtadlus.

Same for parnassa. Parnassa is provided by Hashem. However, we live in a world that He created which requires us to do hishtadlus in the form of "work". We can't just sit back and say "Hashem sends the money, he will send it, I don't have to do anything", because that is not the way He created the world. However, we have to do the best we can and He decides what the parnassa will be.

There is also a concept of us having to create a Kli to be mekabel the brocha, especially in the area of parnassa. Hashem can be sending tons of money our way, but it is our job to create the Kli to accept it. If the kli is not there, we can not receive it.

The hishtadlus and kli are different for each person and have to be determined by the person together with their Rav. For some that means working hard and overtime and for some that means doing very little. It also means accepting the decision on parnassa that Hashem has made for that person. However, thinking that pushing past and doing more than you should will bring more money is wrong because you will just overwork yourself and receive what you were supposed to get anyway.

Mommyg8

Mon, Jul 30 2018, 9:54 am

amother wrote:

I was responding to this comment:

Quote:

Meanwhile, the facts are so clear that in segments of society where people don't put an emphasis on schooling and getting good jobs, the poverty rate is off the charts.

amother

Babyblue

Mon, Jul 30 2018, 10:20 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

Excuse my cynism, but isn't it just now on another thread that someone is discussing the designer names that is de rigueur in one of these insulated societies that don't speak English?

What is your point? Are you applying the exception and presenting it as the rule? Are you disagreeing with the idea that large percentages, well above the national average, in certain areas where schooling and jobs is not emphasized, have horrible poverty rates and are sustained thru charity? What are you trying to say?

Mommyg8

Mon, Jul 30 2018, 10:45 am

amother wrote:

Here's the thread:

https://www.imamother.com/foru.....rt=40

I can't explain it because I really have no idea. I'll wait for someone who actually lives there to explain it.

elisheva25

Mon, Jul 30 2018, 12:06 pm

rydys wrote:

This by far is the best explanation.

amother

Babyblue

Mon, Jul 30 2018, 2:56 pm

rydys wrote:

As another poster pointed out, why do you believe that parnassah is different than everything else that is ultimately up to hashem? If someone needs a medical procedure and the best doctor is out of town, that person will do extra hishtadlus and travel to the better doctor. They will not stay local and figure that hashem can cure them with any doctor. Why do you think parnassah is different where we say If hashem wants me to be rich he can make me rich with minimal effort?

amother

Cerise

Mon, Jul 30 2018, 3:08 pm

amother wrote:

And working hard is something some poor ppl do too like ppl who have no choice but work many hrs in a low paying job or even rabbeim work hard long hrs preparing and dont make much. Just bec person a is rich and person b is poor doesnt mean person b doesnt work long hrs. Working long hrs is hishtadlus but only hashem will decide if "in the end" hell have more money from it. But some rich ppl think only they work hard and not the poor.

amother

Jetblack

Mon, Jul 30 2018, 3:16 pm

amother wrote:

Yup - there's the working poor and the working rich. There are also the not working poor, and the not working rich.

some clever minds tried to fixed this problematic discrepancy with communism.