Parnassah comes from hashem.

amother

Lilac

Mon, Jul 30 2018, 3:24 pm

I heard something once which is interesting to think about

there was a doctor who worked in Hadasa ein kerem who became a baal teshuva. He became very fired up and told his Rav that he was giving up his job to sit and learn. his Rav wasn't so happy about it so he tried to dissuade him.

He didn't get anywhere so he took the guy into Rav Elyashiv. Rav Elyashiv told him that this is a fantastic hishtadlus for a parnasa where he is also able to help people and support his family honorably.

The man insisted "No, I have bitachon Hashem will provide for me if I sit and learn."

Rav Elyashiv tried again to dissuade him and didn't get anywhere. He became very serious. He said to the guy "If you honestly have bitachon that Hashem will provide then He will. But He will provide what He thinks you need not what you decide you need. That may mean no roof over your head, it may mean bread and water to drink, it may mean managing on nothing until He decides. If you are honestly ready to put your entire family into this nisayon and you honestly have emunah that whatever Hashem gives you is what you need, then go for it. But, you can never complain because you have to realize that whatever you get is what Hashem decided you need."

I don't know what happened next. But we do have to realize that when it comes to hishtadlus, we have to try our best and that is different for each person. but we also have to realize that needs differ from person to person. Someone who is in kollel and sees that as ideal for him will have to accept that Hashem will provide what Hashem feels his needs are and not what he decides his needs are.

amother

Yellow

Mon, Jul 30 2018, 4:10 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I know Chassidishe men who can barely speak English who are making WAAAY more than the average doctor.

I heard a shiur from R Yisroel Brog that explains that you have to do hishtadlus based on your beliefs and expectations. If you believe that you will not be able to make ends meet without advanced degrees, then that will be your reality (although R Brog is against degrees personally, he says that that is how hishtadlus works).

You're right.

And everyone here who posts that they are poor, that they can't afford tuition, or food, or rent ... either they're lying, or that's exactly what Hashem wants for them.

amother

Babyblue

Mon, Jul 30 2018, 4:11 pm

amother wrote:

The bolded contradicts alot of what's been said earlier that hashem gives exactly what you are supposed to get and it doesn't change if you are a heart surgeon or a janitor. So the kollel guy who is trying his hardest getting tutoring jobs in the evening, very often is wealthier than the corporate lawyer who bills $1000 an hour because that's what hashem wants. I don't see it this way but many on here do.

amother

Lilac

Mon, Jul 30 2018, 4:24 pm

amother wrote:

olam keminhago noheg. the world runs in "normal" tracks.

On Rosh Hashana Hashem decides what you will get for this year and as long as you do some hishtadlus in the right direction, that is what you will get.

BUT that is only half the story! what about expenses?

You can have a huge income and crazy expenses. or a small income and few expenses. There is a story in the gemara (don't remember all the details) about one of the tanaim who called in his nephews and told them to pay a certain amount to tzedaka. they paid a bit less than that amount and were taken into prison and fined the difference to get out. They asked him about it and he said he knew they were decreed to finish the year with a certain loss so better give to tzedaka than to the government.

so income is only half the story. you need a bracha in the money!!!!

That is why we daven every day for parnasa and not only before yamim noraim.

Apart from this, there is the question of bitachon. If a person (like in the story with Rav Elyashiv) wants to go above teva and rely solely on Hashem without doing any hishtadlus, then he has to realize that he cannot make the rules of what his needs are.

A person who is working kederech hateva, receives his parnasa kederech hateva. If he works harder, he gets more. If he works less, he gets less. Then, if Hashem gives him bracha in his money he will be richer. If there is no bracha in the money, he will be poorer.

But someone who honestly has bitachon AND who dedicates his life to serving Hashem, the rules are different.

I don't know if there are any people like that nowadays. Definitely few and far between.

Leriem

Mon, Jul 30 2018, 6:57 pm

amother wrote:

Your inability to understand is because you are basing your beliefs on the natural aspect of how the world runs, instead of how much Hashem decides each person needs, which might mean he wants a certain dr to have less than a certain Rebbe.

Leriem

Mon, Jul 30 2018, 6:59 pm

amother wrote:

I think you're mixing up emunah with being in a cult. It's silly to say that hashem doesn't give parnassah mostly thru order and hishtadlus. I'm not looking to be controversial, but if you look at certain communities where lots of people don't work, you will see the poverty rate is near the highest in the entire country. Hashem is not saying sit back and money will fall like the manna did when the yidden left mitzrayim. In-spite of what you've read, there is a link between working hard and having money. Why do you think most people on low paying jobs are getting big tuition discounts and are on all kinds of programs? Why doesn't hashem just send them the money some how? Please use common sense. Please believe your eyes and not what you read in a book.

Sorry but I choose to live my life through what the Torah says, not what seems like “common sense” to people who don’t understand His ways or haven’t learned.

Leriem

Mon, Jul 30 2018, 7:02 pm

imasoftov wrote:

As well as other opinions, they appear together in the Gemara, Rosh Hashanah 16a

דתניא הכל נידונים בר"ה וגזר דין שלהם נחתם ביוה"כ דברי ר"מ ר' יהודה אומר הכל נידונין בר"ה וגזר דין שלהם נחתם כל אחד ואחד בזמנו בפסח על התבואה בעצרת על פירות האילן בחג נידונין על המים ואדם נידון בר"ה וגזר דין שלו נחתם ביוה"כ

The Gemara explains: As it is taught in a baraita: All are judged on Rosh HaShana, and their sentence is sealed on Yom Kippur; this is the statement of Rabbi Meir. Rabbi Yehuda says: All are judged on Rosh HaShana, and their sentence is sealed each in its own time: On Passover the sentence is sealed concerning grain; on Shavuot concerning fruits that grow on a tree; on the festival of Sukkot they are judged concerning water; and mankind is judged on Rosh HaShana, and the sentence is sealed on Yom Kippur.

ר' יוסי אומר אדם נידון בכל יום שנאמר (איוב ז, יח) ותפקדנו לבקרים רבי נתן אומר אדם נידון בכל שעה שנא' (איוב ז, יח) לרגעים תבחננו

Rabbi Yosei says: A person is judged every day, and not just once a year, as it is stated: “You visit him every morning” (Job 7:18), meaning that every morning an accounting is made and a judgment is passed. Rabbi Natan says: A person is judged every hour, as it is stated: “You try him every moment” (Job 7:18).

Your point?

Leriem

Mon, Jul 30 2018, 7:04 pm

amother wrote:

Maybe the rebbe is in debt up to his eyeballs and the doctor is contributing to his retirement fund. I don't know what goes on in other people's lives.

As much as it's true that Hashem can send money in all sorts of ways, the world functions according to the rules that Hashem made.

Why is it that with health or shidduchim, no one sits back and waits for goodies to roll in, but when it comes to money, they think they don't have to exert themselves?

Ever hear the folly of “kochi v’otzem yadi?” That means people who think it’s their own efforts that actually accomplish anything, are sorely mistaken. We are obligated to function through natural means, to do hishtadlus, but that hishtadlus in fact has absolutely no effect on the results. Hard for us to understand, yes, but absolutely true.

Leriem

Mon, Jul 30 2018, 7:06 pm

amother wrote:

Exactly. If someone is c'vs sick and the best doctor is 5 hours away, the sick person will travel to see the very best. In other words they will make extra hishtadlus. For some reason when it comes to money, some believe that extra hishtadlus doesn't often lead to extra money and they can sit back and not put forth the extra hishtadlus. Then to prove their point that extra hishtadlus isn't necessary, they find a person who doesn't try that hard and is doing well. There, that proves you don't need extra hishtadlus. Meanwhile, the facts are so clear that in segments of society where people don't put an emphasis on schooling and getting good jobs, the poverty rate is off the charts.

I heard a rov say that buying more than one lottery ticket at a time shows a lack of Emunah. Because if you believe He might want you to win, one ticket will do it. But that goes completely against nature because nature would dictate that the more tickets you buy, the bigger the chance you’ll win. And in Hashem’s world, that’s not true.

amother

Babyblue

Mon, Jul 30 2018, 8:11 pm

Leriem wrote:

I'm still not understanding why parnassah is any different than anything else in life in which hashem created a natural system that the more you work and put into something, the better the results will be. If my son studies an hour for a test he might get a 75. If he studies 2 hours he might get a 90. Should he say that he did his hishtadlus by studying 1 hour and there's no point in studying more? Of course not. The students that work harder will see better results. Even the rabbanim obviously hold by this. Why do you think the rabbanim and gedolim in Eretz Yisroel shlep all the way into New york, California and Toronto to collect money? They miss 2 weeks of learning and undertake this enormous burden of bitul torah, traveling and going around often in their broken english trying to collect money for their yeshiva. According to you, hishtadlus doesn't lead to more money, why don't they just stay in Eretz Yisroel and collect money from local wealthy people. Surely hashem can arrange that they will be equally matzliach without having to shlep all the way to New York. Why do this gedolim do this needless extra hishtadlus? The answer obviously is because the gedolim believe that hashem runs the world b'tevah. If they stay local they may only collect $10,000. If they shlep to the east coast where there are more lots more wealthy people they might raise $100,000. They don't for one second make the cheshbon that hashem can arrange they collect the $100,000 in Eretz Yisroel. No, the shlep halfway across the world to where the money is at.

amother

Jetblack

Mon, Jul 30 2018, 8:28 pm

Leriem wrote:

No - not nature, mathematical probability.

That said - happy to read Rav is advising people not to waste money on lottery tickets.

amother

Cerise

Mon, Jul 30 2018, 8:30 pm

amother wrote:

What I dont understand here and if I could"" I would ask r elyashiv " r elyashiv said if someone has bitachon and doesnt do hishtadlus then hashem will only give what He thinks that person needs. But, does this mean that if I work (my hishtadlus) then hashem gives me MORE THAN WHAT HE THINKS I NEED??? BUT THERE ARE PPL WHO WANT XYZ AND I THOUGHT IT MEANS HASHEM DECIDED THEY DONT NEED XYZ SO THEY DONT HAVE ENOUGH MONEY FOR IT???"

If hashem is giving "extras" to ppl working, does this mean when I learned "hashem sometimes says no u dont need it so we dont get money for it. Is wrong???

rydys

Tue, Jul 31 2018, 3:27 pm

amother wrote:

As another poster pointed out, why do you believe that parnassah is different than everything else that is ultimately up to hashem? If someone needs a medical procedure and the best doctor is out of town, that person will do extra hishtadlus and travel to the better doctor. They will not stay local and figure that hashem can cure them with any doctor. Why do you think parnassah is different where we say If hashem wants me to be rich he can make me rich with minimal effort?

Not necessarily even with medicine. I know of many cases where people were told by their Rebbes to travel far away or to stay local to use a specific doctor who people do not think is the top doctor. However, in most cases basic hishtadlus would indicate to go to the expert in the field. Notice I mentioned above that for some the proper hishtadlus does mean working overtime.

rydys

Tue, Jul 31 2018, 3:32 pm

amother wrote:

So how do you explain someone who is naturally brilliant and does not study at all and someone who is not very smart and studies for hours on end and just passes the class?

Hashem determined what the person's grades will be, but for some it takes a lot of hishtadlus and for some not much at all.

amother

Amethyst

Tue, Jul 31 2018, 6:43 pm

I am living proof of this. Sorry I can't post under my SN. I have a learning disability and have a lot of difficulty working and holding down jobs. When I used to be married to my ex my life seemed hopeless. All our income went to pay rent and tuition and we had no money for cantaloupe or honeydew (let alone a sheitel). I got divorced and remarried. Despite all the dire predictions. Now I don't have to work Boruch Hashem. I don't live in luxury but I know that I can buy whatever I want at Costco.

P.S.: I love buying watermelon!

amother

Babyblue

Tue, Jul 31 2018, 7:10 pm

amother wrote:

First of all, chesdei hashem, things are working out for you. May it continue. Once again though, you are offering an exception as the rule. The fact that you don't have a high income and are living comfortably doesn't mean that this is typical and people should follow your lead. Most families with low incomes are struggling and are dependant on assistance. This fact doesn't change because bh you are doing well. If a child runs into the street and survives does this prove that there is really no need to train children to be careful? After all, nothing happened to this child.