people do change: giving them a chance to be different

Lechatchila Ariber

Tue, Dec 11 2007, 7:30 pm

the topic came up recently and I don't want anyone to think I'm targeting them or attacking or anything. This is purely an intellectual discussion or emotional or whatever you want to classify it Wink

several times in real life and on imamother I have heard people say "I will never forgive her/him"
and sometimes the thing they did does sound truly awful.

But do we leave room for change? Because people do change.
We all do stupid things at some points in our life and yes a lot when we were younger. I can think of several things I cringe about each time my mind takes a trip down memory lane embarrassed

It must not be a pleasant feeling for anyone to think that someone from their past is still bearing grudge for something they are over with and would never do in the present day.

your thoughts?

(of course it goes without saying that we aren't discussing here, murder, rape and other unforgivable!)

Last edited by Lechatchila Ariber on Wed, Dec 12 2007, 4:09 pm; edited 1 time in total

mimivan

Tue, Dec 11 2007, 7:40 pm

There was a line that I said I would never allow anyone to cross and guess what? Someone very close to me crossed it. I had to decide whether or not I thought this person can change. I see a huge amount of effort, and yes, I have to change too.

People can change, but depending on the character trait and how ingrained it is, it can be a HUGE effort.

Most of us want to change, few of us do, but with enough determination, it can be done (depending on what it is of course.)

As is written in Pirkei Avos, one who overcomes his impulses is as great as one who conquers a city...

But who is really up to it? Few succeed, but more could succeed if they gave 100%...

Tefila

Tue, Dec 11 2007, 7:59 pm

Quote:

As is written in Pirkei Avos, one who overcomes his impulses is as great as one who conquers a city...

Yep so what prompted this thread estiss, if it was me all is forgiven though not sure what I have to forgive u for LOL

Lechatchila Ariber

Tue, Dec 11 2007, 8:12 pm

ok so we can discuss changing ourselves and all but I'm asking about the people that were hurt, and feel they can't forgive

Tefila wrote:

Yep so what prompted this thread estiss,

tefila there was a thread recently where someone posted something disgusting a young girl did and said she could never forgive her.
many posters expressed their shock, myself included but others pointed out that she could have been young and stupid and may have changed by now.
I think there is something to this and something to think about no matter how angry we are at a person.

But actually this thread is not just about forgiveness but its also about recognizing change in a person.
Something I think we are all guilty of at some stage in our lives is judging a person by their "old self" and reacting to them, reading into their words and actions, things we think about them from before.

On a minor scale, if you know moishe like to kid around and then one day moishe turns over a new leaf and tries to buckle down and be serious, one, may have a hard time believing he is serious.
or if chaya used to be a very critical person, then even when she is not being critical and she says something "parve" one may think she is being critical.

Purplehair

Wed, Dec 12 2007, 8:44 am

There are a lot of people on this board IMHO who have a lot to learn from you Esti. Forgiving someone who did something wrong to you can be a very difficult thing. You need to be able to "get over" the offending act and start letting your heart heal. That isn't always an easy thing to do, but it is possible. I know that this is very cliche, but I think its true; "To err is human; to forgive, divine". Forgiveness is one step closer to Hakadosh Baruch Hu.

R&RMom

Wed, Dec 12 2007, 9:25 am

While I agree that in an ideal world it is better to forgive and forget...this is easier said than done!
Although a person might regret an action and seek forgiveness...there are certain character traits that people posess...that unless they work on these traits, will continue to hurt others/make mistakes.
They might not do it in the same way but the problem wil keep manifesting in different areas.
People need to work on their middos and really look at what casues the problems so they can work on themselves to fix it.
This might be through some self reflection and some might need therapy...

mimivan

Wed, Dec 12 2007, 9:26 am

If you are talking about that thread a few months back about the babysitter who was guilty of molesting, then I think it would be very difficult to put ourselves in the mother's situation. chas v'shalom I would never want to go through something like this, and quite frankly, my life is challenging enough that I don't have the energy for hypothetical games.

We all have different circumstances in life, and I just don't think we can ever put ourselves in another's headspace. Nor do I think it is a good idea to try.
I don't think it is fair to make a chesbon of someone else's pain.

If this isn't what you were referring to, it is still relevant to the issue, which to me seems quite open ended and general.

Purplehair

Wed, Dec 12 2007, 9:27 am

greenfire wrote:

when one bears a grudge they take on a venemous character - hurting mostly themselves - but also the people they love ... let go and let GOD ... you'll be the better person for it !!!

Mitzvahmom

Wed, Dec 12 2007, 9:31 am

Wow this is such a great topic Smile

My family is so known for grudges...I think it is why for some reason it skipped a generation.. The older generation looks to me, because the inbetween generation keeps fighting over nit picky things..

Lechatchila Ariber

Wed, Dec 12 2007, 4:08 pm

purplehair, embarrassed

....I'm not exactly there yet, I was just thinking thats all..

minivan, in my first post I said I'm not refering to any unforgiveables.

ok this thread was brought by the discussion of the silly girl who locked herself in the car with proud's husband.

we all agree she did something very wrong. but could it have been a lack of maturity? maybe she has grown up since then.

also I think I'm going to change the thread title. I didn't want' to focus on the forgiveness part so much as the giving people a chance to change part.

Even not holding a grudge against someone but merely judging them according to their old self.

like lets say, someone who used to be very untzinus and now has mellowed out and become a lot more tznius. In some people's mind, that person may still be considered a non tzniusdik person.

greenfire

Wed, Dec 12 2007, 4:14 pm

Purplehair wrote:

greenfire wrote:

when one bears a grudge they take on a venemous character - hurting mostly themselves - but also the people they love ... let go and let GOD ... you'll be the better person for it !!!

thanks - I feel like I have a cheerleader Mr. Green

Lechatchila Ariber

Wed, Dec 12 2007, 4:19 pm

more examples:

Chaim used to be very antagonistic towards Yankel because he was more frum them him, but after a bit of a maturity growth spurt, started to have more respect for Yankel and stopped seeing him as a threat, trying instead to learn from him
Yankel however still mistrusts Chaim

Rochel used to play practical jokes on Sarah because she like her and was trying to get her attention. Sarah didn't like it however.
After some time Rochel stopped playing practical jokes and tried to be serious but Sarah still kept her distance and kept watching her back whenever Rochel was around.

Purplehair

Wed, Dec 12 2007, 5:18 pm

I guess when people write something without giving the specifics, people will interpret the writer's intentions in a way that reflects upon their own situation.
Recently I was hurt by someone whom I care a lot about (who feels the same way about me). Despite this, I was determined to forgive said person because I feel that being upset with him/her would only make me feel worse. The person admitted that they were wrong, apologized to me and is trying to make things better. I know that that person is truly sorry and wants to regain my trust. By forgiving said person, I will be able to allow the two of us to forge a better relationship with each other. I will hopefully be able to put those things behind us and we can become "better people" for it.
Esti, your post just strengthened my resolve to make things work. And, despite the fact that that wasn't your intention, I wanted to thank you. Smile

Purplehair

Wed, Dec 12 2007, 5:19 pm

greenfire wrote:

Purplehair wrote:

greenfire wrote:

when one bears a grudge they take on a venemous character - hurting mostly themselves - but also the people they love ... let go and let GOD ... you'll be the better person for it !!!

thanks - I feel like I have a cheerleader Mr. Green

Tznius issues aside, I would look really lousey in a cheerleading uniform! LOL

Lechatchila Ariber

Wed, Dec 12 2007, 5:52 pm

purplehair, you are most welcome.

I'm delighted that some good will come out of a thread I started.
If she apologized to you that you must forgive her, for your own sake as well as hers so yaasher koach for moving in the right direction

Lechatchila Ariber

Wed, Dec 12 2007, 6:41 pm

see this is what we call hashgocho protis Wink

although she didn't intend it, the real reason amother started her thread about the girl being too friendly with her husband was so that proud mama should post her story so that posters will try and suggest be dan lekaf zchus, so that I should think up this thread, so that purplehair should be inspired to reconcile with her close friend.
there you go! Very Happy