Share your opinion without bashing please...

amother

Tue, May 28 2019, 11:48 am

Help me gain a bit of perspective here. I bought my house young because the real estate market in lakewood was doing very well. I wasnt quite sure about the neighborhood I was getting myself into but the basement crowd was young and seemed like id have friends and a nice life here. Well its been a bunch of years since then, my basement friends are long gone and I find myself in what seems like such an odd neighborhood to me. A lot of very chashuv and frum people live here. A lot of working guys who learn a lot on the side but im mostly focusing on the majority or kollel/ klei kodesh type of men. The wives vary from full time hard working to part time barely working. But NO ONE lives simply. DH and I work hard to earn an honest living and were the simplest ones here. The neighbors are bh pleasant and right now moving isn't an option for us but I dont really want my children being raised with peer pressure from the kollel families as crazy as that sounds. It must be that there are wealthy parents / grandparents/ people simply living out of their means. I dont even know how I feel. Am I jealous? Do I think its really strange? I guess my opinions vary day by day. Help me see this in the right light...

Edit: pulling my thoughts together. I guess heres my question-
Is there something wrong with living very comfortably if your parents are happy to be sponsoring, while giving off the a "yeshivish" image? Im talking beautiful homes, kids dressed in designer, every simcha is over the top with high end party planners etc ..

ShishKabob

Tue, May 28 2019, 11:54 am

I don't have any solid advice for you and I'm totally not judging you either. It's a very difficult situation to be in and I wish that you'll find some good advice that'll steer you and your family in the right direction.
Things are not always the way they seem. Meaning, maybe you were under the impression that a kollel family lives more simply and struggles with basic necessities and here you are getting totally the opposite picture. It's with many things in life that you'll find total contradictions and this is one of them. I don't think your jealous, I think your disillusioned.
Lot's of hatzlocha and brocha, and remember that everything is from Hashem. Whatever is meant for you to have you'll have and no one can take it away from you and visa versa.

33055

Tue, May 28 2019, 11:56 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Just want to say that it is not just Lakewood. BH we do OK and don't spend as much disposable income as others who aren't doing as well.

I don't understand the conspicuous consumption in the frum world, but is pervasive.

amother

Lemon

Tue, May 28 2019, 11:58 am

OK here's some perspective.

There are a lot of people in Lkwd in your shoes. So you're not alone. Here's the next thing. For better or for worse, there is a lot of materialism in this very torah-concentrated town. That is true. So you're not crazy, but it is the reality. So you kind of have to find some way to deal. It *is* there. So there's a bit of perspective just at the outset which helps somewhat.

And finally, there will be peer pressure for your kids (and you) at many ages and stages to do many various things. Some related to money, and other things completely unrelated. Like for boys - smoking, hitching rides, etc. You are fortunate that your life situation is making you stop and think about how to raise kids and not just rely on your community and go with the flow. You will be able to teach your children about financial responsibility, about not looking at what other's have, and about the beauty of learning torah that is right in your background.

Not easy at all, but it will make you a grown up and will give your kids some really wonderful parents Smile

amother

Coffee

Tue, May 28 2019, 12:02 pm

I find that where I live often the kollel/rabbeim people's kids wear the fanciest clothing...- I think a lot is parental money. The parents buy them a house...I'm not jealous. I can thank G-d afford to buy the same if I want. I also know that my dh works hard to support us and that we can choose how to spend our money. When you get presents like fancy clothing you can't really chose to save money for retirement instead. There are also people in debt... I understand your struggle, it's not fun but know that I really think you are probably better off, doing it on your own honestly. Now figuring out how to explain that to your kids... is another story.

amother

Cyan

Tue, May 28 2019, 12:05 pm

Squishy wrote:

Yes I've also noticed this is a common trend. Those who earn less often r much quicker to spend

While those who work hard r careful to live beneath their means.

Me and dh both grew up with old fashioned parents- wotked hard to earn honest living. Paid high taxes and paid full tuition yet lived simpler then most who didnt.

We r recently married and considering dif options where we would like to live longterm.

There r many advantages to to lakewood and we r both leaning towarda it.

What op described is my biggest hesitatin.yo live there.

It's not only specifically Lakewood - true.

Im.not bashing Lakewood at all- though I think the demographics there do highlight this problem

Im curious to hear others thoughts on this and if there r other parts of lakewood/ jackson that avoid this lifestyles.

Again I don't want to bash- asking honestly to explore our options

amother

Cerulean

Tue, May 28 2019, 12:17 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I guess it goes against what were taught as children- the more materialism the less room for spirituality.
The contradiction is what im questioning...

Nothing terribly wrong if you have the money but it doesn't sit so well with me either! That's not the example we got from our talmidei chachamim.

I always tell my kids we all have choices on how we spend our money let's try not to judge other ppl on what we see. The important thing is how we chose to spend ours! (And of course give them example to understand!)

amother

Cyan

Tue, May 28 2019, 12:21 pm

amother [ Vermilion ] wrote:

I don’t know why people who are in kollel have to live simply. If they have the money let them spend it.
We live in Lakewood but are not in Kollel but I don’t get why people begrudge those who are in kollel.

There is nothing wrong with it.

I don't care one bit how others spend money even if my dh is working hard to pay double their tuition.

I still don't know If I want to choose to live in area that is so materialistic

amother

Plum

Tue, May 28 2019, 12:22 pm

Squishy wrote:

Yes it's in other places too but Lakewood is a makum Torah and was originally built that way. Away from gashmius away from all the other "needs" of society.

Today that purpose is totally gone.

Even if parents are very wealthy and supporting their Talmud chachum. There is something wrong with a Talmud chachums daughter dressing in ladidas $400 t shirts.

Torah is a kind of lifestyle, not just tatty being Chashuv, mommy shopping and Zeidy being the bank.

Learning Torah is supposed to come with toil.

It's ok if they don't struggle for rent or food, but a girl should be told and feel proud, no we won't get this outfit it's too expensive even if we can afford it. we are lucky that our father learns all day.

A kollel wife should feel proud that she doesn't get the most expensive sheitel or "do lunch" every day, even if she can afford it.

What have they sacrificed for Torah? why would they get Schar?

amother

Ruby

Tue, May 28 2019, 12:22 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I guess it goes against what were taught as children- the more materialism the less room for spirituality.
The contradiction is what im questioning...

DH is in kollel. I work very hard for our money. No steady parental support (though we got a lump sum early in marriage that we invested). We live very simply, and I don't shop all day. But when I do buy, I have standards that maybe strike you as wrong. I'm saving up now to buy the flat that is 70K more bec. it has conveniences I'll need as a working mom like Pesach kitchen + its nicer standard than the 15+ year old one that is cheaper. I'm human; I'm allowed to like nicer stuff. I buy outlet and sales and ali, but my kids are always matching. I don't buy lots of clothes for myself, but those that I buy must look really good on me and I though I'm not always chic and trendy, I don't wear outdated stuff. My kids have extra responsibilities bec. I work, and they see less of Totty and they don't have him chauffering them around like other kids here do, and so I give them extra perks like swimming lessons (which we made clear is an award/incentive for their help when I'm working). I don't know about the ppl next to you, but if my life is what they have, and they can afford it, they really aren't ostentatous by frum standards. I can have my standards and be spiritual. We're tznius; don't 'throw' money on wild vacations or hotels annually (or ever, if truth be told); we give tzedaka within our means; do chessed; don't spend hours following sports or watching 'clean' movies that take away headspace. Our Shabbos tables are of torah riddles, stories, etc. and not fashion talk.
We don't own a car, so that saves a bundle. Our simchas are generally celebrated in shul with a tray of cake (maybe just cause I don't like crowds:-)
We have a bar mitzvah coming up soon and my choice is for 10 men in the dining room. But, unless DS agrees happily, that's not happening, and we are saving up for a nice, middle of the road bar mitzvah in a hall. Not a huge bash, but not home-cooked affair in neighbor's drab basement.
We have our preferences.
So yes, I think I'm fashionable and spiritual.
And, I am also concerned about standards that I can't keep up with, but I don't think kollel families should be 'nebby' if they can help it.

amother

Taupe

Tue, May 28 2019, 12:24 pm

This is not a new issue, and it's not unique to Lakewood. Over 30 years ago, my parents found this to be true in their neighborhood in Monsey. My mother told me that one year, the local frum store got in a certain dress at a reasonable price, and she bought it for my two older sisters for Y"T. They were so excited. But after Y"T, the Kollel kids in the neighborhood were wearing it for weekday!

My parents switched us out of the more yeshivish school in town because my sisters were bullied by the fancy Kollel kids.

I think that practically speaking, many of the people who are in Kollel are being supported, so the standard of living is often actually higher than those who actually work for a living and are spending their own dime.

Signed,

a non-supported Kollel wife

thunderstorm

Tue, May 28 2019, 12:30 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I guess it goes against what were taught as children- the more materialism the less room for spirituality.
The contradiction is what im questioning...

Correct. When I was growing up , we were taught that there is sacrifice in learning Torah full time and that would mean if we took upon ourselves to live a kollel lifestyle it meant we would need to be histapkus b'miut. I understood that I wasn't on a level to live like that so my DH and I made up that he'd remain in kollel until we were expecting our first child. Ironically , I am the one being histapkus bmiut now while my friends who are part of kollel families are living a much more balebatish lifestyle. If it were just one or two people I'd think it's a minority . But it's not. This has become the norm and like another poster mentioned we are feeling disillusioned.
Once upon a time my mother had a clothing gemach in Brooklyn. About 25 years ago there was a huge demand in Lakewood for second hand used clothing even though they were stained and torn. My mother sent weekly carloads of clothes there. They lived so simply that the kollel families had no issue dressing their kids in those clothes. Not anymore.

Last edited by thunderstorm on Tue, May 28 2019, 12:41 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Aqua

Tue, May 28 2019, 12:32 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Is there something wrong with living very comfortably if your parents are happy to be sponsoring, while giving off the a "yeshivish" image? Im talking beautiful homes, kids dressed in designer, every simcha is over the top with high end party planners etc ..

I have a term "expensive people". Which basically means people who have opted into lives that are expensive to maintain (I don't consider schooling an option).

I'm uncomfortable around "expensive people" - that's on me. I live where I live accordingly.

Nobody is in the wrong. There are many ways to live.

amother

Aquamarine

Tue, May 28 2019, 12:36 pm

I'm a nonsupported Kollel wife, but we don't live in lakewood anymore. Every place is going to have peer pressure. In some places, it is materialism. In other places, it is other things. The best advice I can give is that you have to be on top of the chinuch of your child in lakewood or any place else. Teach your children about living within your means. You can try to find a place where everyone has similar values, but honestly no place is perfect and you are going to have to be in charge of your children's chinuch anywhere.

33055

Tue, May 28 2019, 12:38 pm

amother [ Aqua ] wrote:

The problem with expensive people is that when they are widespread, the standards become increased for ordinary people.