pig leather | Imamother

Lechatchila Ariber

Tue, Jan 15 2008, 5:00 pm

amother wrote:

EstiS wrote:

you seem to think that lubavitchers shield their kids from actually knowing these creatures exist. This is not so!

I have a Rabbi and Reb. who are Lubavitch (anon to protect their id) and when their first was growing up, whenever he'd see a dog he'd say "cow!" All treif animals were a cow. Of course that changed when he got older, but I just think that's weird.

I get the whole, not having a stuffed teddy bear, even though I don't hold by it (though I do think it's adorable when dd hugs his stuffed torah), but to not use their real names?

amother, I don't speak for those that take things out of context Wink

Of course that's just plain silly!

Clarissa

Tue, Jan 15 2008, 5:03 pm

EstiS wrote:

Oh I just HAVE to answer this one.
Years ago I used to do some teaching and I've seen kids:
roar like a lion and end up hurting other kids,
repeatedly hurt other kids with the excuse they are power ranges,
... etc

so you still want to tell me they are just toys?

Kids don't roar like lions because they have a stuffed lion, nor do they growl like bears because they have teddy bears or make believe that they're extinct because they have toy dinosaurs, etc. Kids will make all sorts of aggressive, excited sounds because they're kids. They'll imitate whatever allows them to be wild and get energy out. By the way, my kid has stuffed animals of every ilk, and he's never imitated any of the animals.

Reminds me of that old story about the anti-gun couple who didn't allow any toy weaponry in the house, yet caught their kids having battles with whatever was handy and could be held like a gun -- a Barbie doll, a screwdriver, a fork. It's just what kids do. Although not my kid, who is a pacifist and is way more interested in computers than aggressive beasts or weaponry.

greenfire

Tue, Jan 15 2008, 5:25 pm

as with everyone in every sect ... you will have those who lean more to the right, those who lean more to the left, and those who stay in the center ... which means there is not only one way

p.s. for the record power rangers do not make animal sounds ... so there is no connection here ...

Lechatchila Ariber

Tue, Jan 15 2008, 5:39 pm

look clarissa, cassandra and others, we can explain our reasoning to you till we are blue in the face. Its not going to change your attitude.
No one is forcing it on you, the question was asked and we answered.
simple as that. You can either respect it (and be that famous word "tolerant") and move on or not but I don't see the point in continuing the discussion any longer unless you genuinely want to know for practical purposes.

Crayon210

Tue, Jan 15 2008, 5:46 pm

amother wrote:

EstiS wrote:

you seem to think that lubavitchers shield their kids from actually knowing these creatures exist. This is not so!

You know for a fact that the kid was told it was a cow, or he assumed based on overgeneralization (which ALL kids do in some way-calling all old ladies "Bubby" or all books "Chumash"...it's part of language development).

I would just tell a kid it's a treif animal, then as they get more capable of using words in general, it's a dog/cat/horse/etc.

amother

Tue, Jan 15 2008, 6:02 pm

sruth1 wrote:

Crayon210 wrote:

When I'm pregnant I avert my eyes from treif animals. But that's a different story.

Can I respectfully ask why?

I was starving when I was pregnant. Maybe she was afraid if she saw any old animal (dog, horse, cat) she'd be tempted to eat it?

Crayon210

Tue, Jan 15 2008, 6:06 pm

sruth1 wrote:

Crayon210 wrote:

When I'm pregnant I avert my eyes from treif animals. But that's a different story.

Can I respectfully ask why?

While our children are growing and developing inside of us, they are very affected by us: what we eat and drink, what medications we take, the exercises we do or don't do...

They're also very affected spiritually by what we do. Looking at treif animals can CHV have a negative spiritual effect on our babies. So I am careful not to look, and I also do not go to zoos. (There are other things to be careful with when pregnant, as mentioned in other threads on this board.)

I don't think most people would take a chance with cigarettes/alcohol/pot/heroin/thalidomide (sp?) while pregnant. I also don't take a chance with spiritual inyanim. I want to give my kids the best start!

Clarissa

Tue, Jan 15 2008, 6:35 pm

How was this handled in areas without cars? In villages in Eastern Europe, cars weren't even used in the 1920's and 30's. Only horses or ox-carts.

True that most people wouldn't take a chance with heroin or thalidomide. But I didn't know glancing at a neighbor's cocker spaniel could be considered destructive.

At any rate, to each her own. We all do our best.

Just curious -- how do people feel similarly if they are involved in a business that deals, for whatever reasons, in animals. Does that mean nobody can become a vet, a farmer, a zoologist, work in a pet shop, be an anthropologist, a tour guide...the list could go on and on.

leomom

Tue, Jan 15 2008, 6:49 pm

When my daughter was a baby, she called every animal a dog. So when she saw an ant, she said "doggie." It is totally a developmental thing.

With my own kids, I didn't avoid naming non-kosher animals when we saw them ("look - there's a horsey") with the exception of pigs. I held off on getting the word pig into their vocabulary for a lot longer -- just out of my own feeling about how it sounds.

(Also, as a side point, when I do tell my kids that an animal is not kosher, that's what I say -- "it's a non-kosher animal" -- instead of saying "treif." That's because when the Torah talks about which animals are kosher, it uses euphemisms when referring to the non-kosher ones.)

I do feel like everyone has explained very clearly the rationale behind not giving kids non-kosher animals to play with. It's a spiritual thing, and if someone is not tuned into that kind of approach or does not want to be, then explanations can only go so far.

leomom

Tue, Jan 15 2008, 6:52 pm

Clarissa wrote:

Just curious -- how do people feel similarly if they are involved in a business that deals, for whatever reasons, in animals. Does that mean nobody can become a vet, a farmer, a zoologist, work in a pet shop, be an anthropologist, a tour guide...the list could go on and on.

Several people have clarified repeatedly that this whole thing has NOTHING to do with seeing real animals. We are talking ONLY about the toys (and books or room decor, etc.) we surround our children with.

Zoos, farms, pet shops... being a farmer, a vet, anthropologist (studies PEOPLE so not really relevant here, though).... no problem. I'm not sure why this is such a difficult distinction to understand?

Clarissa

Tue, Jan 15 2008, 6:57 pm

yy wrote:

anthropologist (studies PEOPLE so not really relevant here, though)

I have a degree in Anthropology, and it's pretty impossible to separate studying cultures with the animals that are closely involved with the people, unless you're doing an ethnography of contemporary Tokyo or something.

At any rate, we may be talking about toys in your case, but not in everyone's case, as you can see if you've read other posts here.

leomom

Tue, Jan 15 2008, 7:04 pm

OK, so no problem with anthropology.

Some people may choose to limit their kids' exposure to real, live, non-kosher animals. That is their personal sensitivity and goes beyond the "letter" of what the Rebbe spoke about, as far as I know (and I am not an expert by any stretch). To some extent I actually do the same, now that I think about it... but it's so second-nature I don't really do it consciously. For example, while my children need to be comfortable around dogs because my in-laws have them, they DON'T need to spend time rubbing noses with the dogs or giving them doggie treats.

But my son loves dogs anyway. And my daughter loves cats. And that's really OK, because the point isn't that we shouldn't LOVE ANIMALS (which I do) but that we are careful about what we put in front of our children's pure eyes and minds, especially when they are babies.

Lechatchila Ariber

Tue, Jan 15 2008, 7:09 pm

Clarissa is refering to what crayon wrote about when pregnant.

This is a personal feeling, possibly a minhag, I'm not sure.
Its not halacha so the question of does that mean people can't be........ isn't a question at all
no one "can't" anything. Its a choice that she makes and finished.

GetReal

Tue, Jan 15 2008, 7:20 pm

I was just looking at something the Lubavitcher Rebbe wrote on this topic and he mentions that there is a source for this concept in halacha.
It says in Shulchan Aruch that a woman who is coming out of the mikvah should be careful not to see first a tamai animal and if she does, if she's a yrei shamayim, she'll toivel again.
This is because seeing these things has an effect on a fetus.

cassandra

Tue, Jan 15 2008, 7:48 pm

EstiS wrote:

I resent this. I don't have an "attitude" about this. 2+2 just isn't equalling 4 for me here, so I was genuinely trying to understand it, and I haven't heard a sufficient answer (I'm not saying that there isn't one out there, just that so far no one has given me one)

Why is it that on this site question=attack?!?!?

gryp

Tue, Jan 15 2008, 8:12 pm

EstiS wrote:

It's not just a personal feeling, I know I've learned this, I should check for the source but I also do not look at dogs, cats, etc while I'm pregnant. And don't go to zoos.

My 4 yr old has just stopped calling every single animal on the street "cow." I've told him countless times that cows are on farms, but it just didn't click until recently. Especially when he saw a black and white spotted dog. LOL

Many people don't like using the word "pig," and say "chazer" or "davar acher" (Rashi does that, it woud be nice if I would remember where Rolling Eyes

)instead.

Animals have certain characteristics, and we don't want our children to be influenced spiritually by the wild, aggressive characteristics treife animals have.

Perhaps someone wants to post the actual words the Rebbe said about this. It might be easier to understand reading the Rebbe's actual words instead of trying to explain it in our own.

amother

Tue, Jan 15 2008, 8:15 pm

GR wrote:

Animals have certain characteristics, and we don't want our children to be influenced spiritually by the wild, aggressive characteristics treife animals have.

Yes, I have nightmares about being attacked by a bunny.

cassandra

Tue, Jan 15 2008, 8:16 pm

GR, thanks. You did a pretty good job yourself.

If I understand correctly you believe that there is some sort of spiritual mechanism that goes into affect when LOOKING at the IMAGE` of a treif animal that can scar a child SPIRITUALLY. And to go further, WEARING that animal will not affect the same spiritual mechanism. Did I get it?