pig leather | Imamother

Ruchel

Wed, Jan 16 2008, 6:44 am

Well, cows can be pretty agressive. Not even talking bulls.

My rav says it's a loubavitch habit, adopted by the last rebbe, and irrelevant for others. There are often lions on the velvety stuff that protects the Torah and in the shul, the animals that are impure to eat are no spiritual danger, their image under the form of picture or plushy isn't a problem at all. The Talmud even say we can learn tznius from a cat, hard work from the ant...

Just to put some perspective... before other frum people are called not machmir in their children's chinuch...

Crayon210

Wed, Jan 16 2008, 9:48 am

Did someone say anything about not being machmir in children's chinuch?

Crayon210

Wed, Jan 16 2008, 9:48 am

cassandra wrote:

GR, thanks. You did a pretty good job yourself.

If I understand correctly you believe that there is some sort of spiritual mechanism that goes into affect when LOOKING at the IMAGE` of a treif animal that can scar a child SPIRITUALLY. And to go further, WEARING that animal will not affect the same spiritual mechanism. Did I get it?

Hey, I said it first! ;-)

leomom

Wed, Jan 16 2008, 9:49 am

I don't think anyone who has been discussing this topic from the Chabad perspective has been at all judgmental toward anyone else. Not one person has implied that everyone should follow this practice. People have simply been responding to questions and trying to explain what is behind their own customs.

Also, it's not just about non-kosher animals' predatory natures (and aggression is different from being a predator). Chassidus says a lot about the spiritual significance of having a split hoof and ruminating. So it's hard for anyone here to have a real understanding without learning more about all that stuff, too.

gryp

Wed, Jan 16 2008, 10:40 am

You're right, yy. I should have explained it more clearly.

When I said non-kosher animals are aggressive and wild, I didn't mean to use that as THE reason, but as a common example. We don't know exactly what negative influence each animal has, but the Rebbe has told us that it is not something we want surrounding our children.

leomom

Wed, Jan 16 2008, 11:12 am

I agree totally, and I wasn't commenting on anything you personally said -- in fact I also said much the same thing in a previous post. I just wanted to clarify further.

gryp

Wed, Jan 16 2008, 11:19 am

Also, this isn't a campaign to block animals out of our lives, just not to surround our children with their images.

We know about lions on the paroches, the animals on the Merkava, names like Dov Ber which means "bear," etc etc.

Cassandra, you got the idea, but I want to come back to your post later when I have a longer second than I do now.

chocolate moose

Wed, Jan 16 2008, 12:37 pm

Now that in the media I keep hearing about animals ecaping and attcking, I'm not as zoo friendly a I used to be ....

pet shops either

Clarissa

Wed, Jan 16 2008, 12:52 pm

chocolate moose wrote:

Now that in the media I keep hearing about animals ecaping and attcking, I'm not as zoo friendly a I used to be ....

pet shops either

Yes, after that story about the tiger mauling the guy at the San Francisco zoo, we've completely eliminated tiger from our diet.

Are pet shop animals really escaping and attacking? I'll have to be more careful next time I visit our neighborhood Petco. Those goldfish sometimes have an angry and evil glint in their little fisheyes.

gigi

Wed, Jan 16 2008, 1:07 pm

Clarissa wrote:

LOL

Lechatchila Ariber

Wed, Jan 16 2008, 3:19 pm

Ruchel wrote:

Just to put some perspective... before other frum people are called not machmir in their children's chinuch...

I suggest you (and whoever else would like to suggest we are being judgmental) go back and read who started this discussion.

If you do so, you will note this discussion was started by not us but others who were challenging us to explain and rationalize to them our chumrah, some of them quite mockingly.

so please...don't go suggesting this is about "our" outlook on other peoples chinuch methods Rolling Eyes

we are not the judgmental ones here
please let's not distort things.

yy wrote:

Also, it's not just about non-kosher animals' predatory natures

correct,
I only used that as an example to show that its not true that a toy is just a toy and yes they do have an affect on the child, although the effect we are concerned about here is more of a spiritual effect rather then a affect on nature.

Crayon210 wrote:

Hey, I said it first!

yeah...we all did...over and over and over and over Rolling Eyes

Now I'd like to address a question to those of you who don't feel there is any spiritual connection with animals or lack of it.

Why do you keep kosher?

Clarissa

Wed, Jan 16 2008, 3:25 pm

I definitely feel a spiritual connection with animals. That's why I very rarely eat any of them. (Apologies to fish, which I do consume about once a month). As far as the stuffed variety, we have more animals here than the San Diego Zoo. I know that wasn't part of the question, I just threw that in.

chocolate moose

Wed, Jan 16 2008, 3:27 pm

Clarissa wrote:

I definitely feel a spiritual connection with animals. That's why I very rarely eat any of them. (Apologies to fish, which I do consume about once a month)

Not carrots, potatotoes, cucumbers, etc ?

Ruchel

Wed, Jan 16 2008, 3:28 pm

ok, now it's equated with kashrus...

I can respect if it's a minhag or kabbalistic, but why chumra... it doesn't make anything better. If it was a chumra, everyone would say so, although it would not be done universally.

The forbidden link we have to avoid with treif animals is through eating. Period.

cassandra

Wed, Jan 16 2008, 3:29 pm

Quote:

Crayon210 wrote:

Hey, I said it first!

yeah...we all did...over and over and over and over Rolling Eyes

I guess I'm dumb then, or don't speak English well enough...

Quote:

Now I'd like to address a question to those of you who don't feel there is any spiritual connection with animals or lack of it.

Why do you keep kosher?

Because G-d said so.

Clarissa

Wed, Jan 16 2008, 3:31 pm

chocolate moose wrote:

Clarissa wrote:

I definitely feel a spiritual connection with animals. That's why I very rarely eat any of them. (Apologies to fish, which I do consume about once a month)

Not carrots, potatotoes, cucumbers, etc ?

Nope, carrots are arrogant and obnoxious. Have you ever spent time with one of them? Tossing back their leaves like they own the vegetable drawer, rolling all over each other and everything else.

Potatoes? They're actually horrible racists. Every time I walk past one of them, I hear them hissing to the others about "the Jewess." I can feel them watching me with their potato eyes.

Cucumbers are just plain stupid. Have you ever tried to engage one in conversation? Sure, they're crunchy and innocuous, but they lack any nutritional value and they have nothing important to contribute to anything. Vacuous.

I could go on...

Ruchel

Wed, Jan 16 2008, 3:33 pm

true that many consider kashrus a chok, but some also give explanations (connexions) but for eating only (bh)...

Lechatchila Ariber

Wed, Jan 16 2008, 3:45 pm

Ruchel to be honest I don't know what to call it. a chumrah, minhag whatever. It makes no difference to me. The Rebbe told us about it so that's what we do, whatever status it may have.

Quote:

If it was a chumra, everyone would say so

why? there are plenty of chumra's belonging to other groups, that I've never heard of.

Cassandra wrote:

Because G-d said so.

correct, its a chok.
so there is no rational explanation to it outside of the spiritual plane.
Can you then accept that there is a spiritual connection to it? (because its a G-dly law with no mortal explanation)

gryp

Wed, Jan 16 2008, 4:23 pm

Quote:

Because what one sees leaves lasting impressions, especially on young children, the toys that a child plays with, and the pictures that he looks at, should not be of impure animals.

Visual images have great impact on manï¿½s mind: What one sees can leave lasting impressions for good or bad.[7] Viewing sacred objects or images has positive benefits;[8] pictures of impure animals harm[9] the mind and soul.[10]

Children are particularly susceptible, for that which registers upon the mind when young forms an indelible impression. In the words of King Shelomoh:[11] ï¿½Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will not depart from it.ï¿½ Impressions etched in a childï¿½s tender mind[12] have potent effects even when older.

There are Halachic sources for this. The Jewish Code of Law states:[13] ï¿½Upon leaving immersion in a mikvah women should be careful ... that the first thing they encounter should not be an impure thing [such as a dog or donkey[14]] ... If she encountered such things, a G-d-fearing women will return and reimmerse herselfï¿½.[15] The reason for this is as above: looking at impure animals can have a harmful effect on an embryo. Conversely, viewing something sacred after immersion has a beneficial effect on the embryo.[16]

It follows, then, that one should be particularly careful of objects and pictures that a child sees. It is a Jewish custom, for example, to hang verses from the Torah or other sacred objects on the walls of a newbornï¿½s room, or around his crib. Conversely, a parent should ensure that no pictures of impure animals should meet the babyï¿½s gaze. Children also enjoy playing with toys, such as stuffed animals. Again, only pure animals, birds, and fish, should be chosen.

As the child becomes older, it is time for him or her to learn the aleph-bais. So that the child can move easily grasp the shape of the letters, it is usual to illustrate them with pictures. Only pictures of pure animals should be used.[17] Similarly, the pictures of animals used to make many text books and note books more attractive should only be Pure animals.

A popular character in this country, it is true, is a ... mouse. Other impure creatures have also become well-known symbols. So wide-spread has this become that Jewish publications, which otherwise are completely kosher, have unfortunately also become infected. But it is not at all a difficult task to see to it that from now on all illustrations in Jewish text books should be only of pure things.

The importance of the above is even more emphasized in our times, the era immediately preceding Moshiachï¿½s coming. It is our responsibility to prepare for the Messianic era, to ï¿½tasteï¿½ of[18] those things which will then be present.[19] And one of those things will be the fulfillment of the promise ï¿½I will remove the spirit of impurity from the land.ï¿½[20] A fitting preparation for the Messianic era is to ensure, where possible, that only pictures depicting pure and sacred things be used.

May it be G-dï¿½s will that we thereby merit an overflowing increase of the ï¿½pure waters of knowledge,ï¿½ until the fulfillment of the promise ï¿½the earth will be filled with the knowledge of G-d as the water covers the seaï¿½[21] ï¿½ in the true and complete redemption through our righteous Moshiach.

Notes:

7. (Back to text) See Kav HaYosher, ch. 2; Kuntres HaAvodah, ch. 2.

8. (Back to text) See Midbar Kadomos, section ï¿½picture;ï¿½ Sefer Toldos Adam.

9. (Back to text) This does not apply to looking at animals for the purpose of reciting the blessing over strange animals. The Kav HaYosher notes that even in such a case, ï¿½he should only look at them temporarily.ï¿½ The same reasoning would apply to looking for the purpose of pondering on G-dï¿½s manifold works. Similarly, visiting a zoo would also be permitted.

10. (Back to text) In many synagogues, a lionï¿½s or eagleï¿½s head is depicted on the curtain in front of the ark, and on the Torahï¿½s mantle and crown. But this is to serve as a reminder that prayer to G-d shall be in the manner of ï¿½strong as a lionï¿½ and ï¿½light as an eagle,ï¿½ as the beginning of the Shulchan Aruch instructs (based on Avos 5:20. Another reason may be that it parallels the Supernal Chariot on which was the face of a lion and the face of an eagle.

In similar fashion, the reason some of the tribes had unclean animals depicted on their banners is because each picture was associated with the quintessence of that tribe (Bamidbar Rabbah 2:7).

11. (Back to text) Mishlei 22:6.

12. (Back to text) See Rokeach, Hilchos Shavuos 296: ï¿½On the day that a child is educated about the sacred letters, we cover him up so that he should not see a dog.ï¿½

13. (Back to text) Ramah, Yoreh Deah ch. 198; Shaï¿½arei Orah, Hilchos Niddah, ch. 26; Rokeach and Kol Bo, Hilchos Niddah; See also Shach on Yoreh Deah, ch. 198.

14. (Back to text) Shach, ibid.

15. (Back to text) Midrash Eleh Ezkerah (and Shaï¿½arei Orah ibid.) cites an actual case of the mother of R. Yishmael ben Elisha the kohen gadol, who repeated her immersion eighty times.

16. (Back to text) See Berochos 20a, that through women looking at R. Yochanan after immersion they had beautiful children like him.

17. (Back to text) This does not apply when learning in Torah of the different types of unclean animals; it is obviously permissible for the teacher to draw pictures of them to facilitate understanding. As Rashi, the most famed teacher of all, comments on the verse (Vayikra 11:2) ï¿½This is the living thingï¿½ -- that Moshe ï¿½showedï¿½ the Jews the animals they were prohibited from eating.

18. (Back to text) As stated, ï¿½Those who taste of it merit lifeï¿½ -- see Magen Avraham, Orach Chayim ch. 250, subsection 1; Aruch Admor HaZoken, Orach Chayim ch. 250, para. 8.

19. (Back to text) See Likkutei Sichos, vol. 15, p. 282.

20. (Back to text) Zechariah 13:2.

21. (Back to text) Yeshayah 11:9.

(Thank you farmom for posting it originally.)

Ribbie Danzinger

Wed, Jan 16 2008, 4:40 pm

This may be a little off topic, but it brings another point about guarding the eyes to see only things that will arouse pure thoughts:

Quote:

As any advertising expert can affirm, what we see and the subliminal messages that the images we see reflect in our minds have a tremendous influence over our thoughts and actions. The Torah therefore teaches us that resisting temptation begins by guarding the eyes. By redirecting our eyes to see only permitted sights and refusing to be lured by spurious hidden promises of self-realization, we guard our minds from foreign influences and conserve our energy for the appropriate moment. By conserving this energy through guarding our eyes and thoughts, we increase the potency of the energy until the correct moment arises to release it all in sanctity.

(Source: an article based on a lecture by Rabbi Yitzchak Ginsburgh, shlit"a)

Even the subliminal messages that adults receive through their sight can have a powerful effect on their actions (something that has been scientifically proven). Just as with any other physical or spiritual danger, we must guard children, who are absolutely powerless to deal with this effect, even more closely than we guard our adult eyes.