Do you think for yourself?

cassandra

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 8:08 pm

Tehilla wrote:

roza I disagree with your statement. rabbinical students, yeshiva students are clearly taught critical thinking skills when they analyze Torah, especially Gemara!

The women are not though.

And this:

Quote:

in fact, most if not all of them will far surpass college graduates in critical thinking skill

is a gross overstatement.

Tehilla

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 8:23 pm

well I went to college, as a matter of fact had permission to take 21 credits a semester and 12 credits each summer session, a full scholarship, and had tested so high on a military entrance exam that they wanted me to enlist that same day. is it boasting? not at all, for there are many people much more intelligent than me, and all the secular knowledge I wasted my time with I'd trade this second for one drop more of understanding the Torah. and the Rabbis I know are "winning" by far. I don't think it is a gross overstatement.

also, my critical thinking skills were challenged and honed through day to day frum life, and most of all by being married and having children. they are deeply affected by the learning that I do as well. women may not be taught Gemara thinking skills, but "critical thinking" is developed in many different areas.

cassandra

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 8:28 pm

I guess it's a matter of how you define "critical thinking". And as an educated individual you cannot determine how sharp your critical thinking skills would have been had you grown up in a very insular community where the communal policy is DAVKA not to educate women beyond what they need to be mothers and wives. You may have gained a lot from being a mother (I know I certainly have) but it is my power of reasoning that I believe was largely honed through my education that allows me to make motherhood a meaningful experience.

You also went from

Quote:

yeshiva students are clearly taught critical thinking skills

Quote:

and the Rabbis I know are "winning" by far. I don't think it is a gross overstatement.

I think the former is an overstatement, and I don't know if you can prove the latter (that Rabbis as a whole have better critical thinking skills then high level academics)

Tehilla

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 8:34 pm

cassandra the quote included rabbis with:

Quote:

rabbinical students, yeshiva students are clearly taught critical thinking skills when they analyze Torah, especially Gemara!

and yes, I suppose it could depend on how you define critical thinking. for myself I have lived totally in the secular world, and now in an extremely frum environment. there are stories upon stories of Rebbeim, Ravs, even "ordinary" Jews who outdebated, outreasoned, and won debates with members of the "Enlightenment," the "clergy" and more.

besides, there is a balance to everything. someone who has to do everything "my way" or completely individually (as others have stated above) can easily lose focus, direction, or even destroy a good thing. it is important to be able to think for yourself, to analyze a problem and come to a solution--and it is important to know when to follow the communal standards even if it goes against your 'grain.'

cassandra

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 8:39 pm

Quote:

This is neither here nor there, but lots of stories that are part of the Jewish folk tradition to make Jews feel better, smarter, and superior to the non-Jews when they were downtrodden and oppressed. I don't consider this "proof" of anything.

Quote:

besides, there is a balance to everything. someone who has to do everything "my way" or completely individually (as others have stated above) can easily lose focus, direction, or even destroy a good thing. it is important to be able to think for yourself, to analyze a problem and come to a solution--and it is important to know when to follow the communal standards even if it goes against your 'grain.'

I agree with you 100%, I'm just not quite sure what this has to do with my assertion that women in certain segments of the frum community are not taught to think critically.

louche

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 8:43 pm

Not only do I think for myself, sometimes I'm forced to think for other people as well. Rolling Eyes

Which doesn't necessarily mean that I don't conform to the community mold in many ways. At least, it's conforming for me. No doubt many in my community think I'm a total oddball--they have no idea how much more like them I am than I used to be--not that I'm happy about that. I've unfortunately absorbed certain attitudes that I find quite unattractive. If I moved to a diff. community I'd eventually morph into something more like that one. You can't help it. Your surroundings rub off on you, willy-nilly.

chayitty

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 8:43 pm

I dont think it has to do if ur frum or not...it has to do with ur personality some people just like to go with the flow and some people like to do theyre own thing......I happen to think alot into things and with certin things I like to just go with the flow...no I wont buy a sheitel just bec. people say its good...but if my friends have a certain shetil and it looks good and they all rant and rave about yes I will buy it....and the truth with sheitels and doc. and clothing everyone can have a good or bad situation with them all...I know this kid and when she was coming outta high school I was asking her wat r her plans..shes like I wanna go for a ba..im like cool a ba in wat?..she gave be this confused face and sheslike wat do u mean in wat..in ba....she just heard wat others wanna do and wanted to do the same...so not all collage kids learn critcal thinking

Atali

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 8:49 pm

The thing is Cassandra, that what you are saying is contrary to my experience. I know many people, both within the frum community and outside of it, who can think critically, and many more who can't, and it has absolutely no correlation to whether or not they went to college.

I wonder how much of your assertion is based on stereotypes of charedi women rather than actual knowledge (or for that matter, critical thinking).

cassandra

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 8:53 pm

I didn't say college, someone else did.

I am basing it on my experiences with women on this site and others who when asked about their lifestyle and practices can parrot back certain things they were taught, and when pressed further can't answer anymore. I can't understand how someone can do something without understanding the reasons behind it and making the choice to do so.

I would like to hear from the chasidish (non-Lubavitch) women here so that they can voice their own opinions as to whether or not their education taught them to think critically. Your defending it is worthless, they need to defend it for themselves.

Tehilla

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 8:55 pm

cassandra wrote:

I guess this is a big difference in where we base our opinions. I was told by a wonderful Rav that sippurim tzaddikim, and these very stories you appear to be brushing off play an inestimable role in emuna today, in these last days of golus. not only that, but I can't really debate with you here if you don't want to hold certain things (not just this) as "proof."

Quote:

I agree with you 100%, I'm just not quite sure what this has to do with my assertion that women in certain segments of the frum community are not taught to think critically.

I happen to think chayitty said it very nicely below. a lot of it also depends on the person's own essential make up, not just frum or not. and even though I may get completely Banging head

for saying this--a woman doesn't need to know everything a man is taught in yiddishkeit! women are graced clearly with an extra measure of understanding that men are told to trust. I don't feel upset when my husband knows more Gemara, or Chassidus than me. if anything I am proud of him, and spurred to learn more things myself. I think that you are correct that there are definitely women who have trouble holding an opinion for themselves, but hey, that's anywhere. mainly, a frum lifestyle does encourage a woman to think, and to think from her proper sphere of being. the secular culture, and women's lib movement tries to get a woman to be a man. B"H many people now realize that the most that a woman can do is by being the best woman she can be, not to erase her femininity through "rising to the top" of...what...?

cassandra

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 8:59 pm

There is a difference between critical thinking and knowledge.

Are you asserting that critical thinking is masculine and therefore not important for a woman? Then you agree with me!

And yes, you are right, we can't debate certain things, since you take certain things as "givens" which I don't, and the only way for one to accept certain "givens" is to put faith in someone else and to not think about things critically on a case-by-case basis. And I can have emuna without folk tales.

So I guess you've proven my point.

Last edited by cassandra on Sun, Feb 24 2008, 9:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

cassandra

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 9:02 pm

Tehilla wrote:

Quote:

Your defending it is worthless, they need to defend it for themselves.

all right, please clarify what you're saying here? it appears to upset you and come back down to a Lubavitch issue--which indeed I hope is a misinterpretation on my part. we are chassidish women, voicing our opinions on it. why is it that when we do so, it seems to switch to suddenly being "okay, so anyone NOT Lubavitch please speak up?"

in addition--there have been several chassidish women on here who have stated their opinions.

No, no, no. You are misunderstanding. I meant because it seems that Lubavitch as a whole does place value on educating women, so my argument doesn't apply to the Lubavitch educational system. (Also because Lubavitch has a large group of BTs, many of whom were educated before they became frum)

And none of the chasidish women have addressed the educational issue, which is what I'm looking for.

Atali

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 9:03 pm

cassandra wrote:

Sorry, I didn't know that you were only referring to chassidish women, that wasn't clear, since most Lubavitchers don't go to college either (unless they are BT's who became frum after college age).

For the record, I didn't go to college, although I do have some credits (from AP's and a trade school).

Also, I would be curious to see how different the answers would be if you were to take a random sampling of college students and ask them to defend their beliefs. Many of them would probably say, "well, that was what I was taught in school," or "this is what my parents told me", etc.

cassandra

Sun, Feb 24 2008, 9:10 pm

Quote:

chassidish woman here.
stated my opinions on this matter.
you do know that even in chassidish circles, you find many diversities, right

I am asking you, in school, was there value placed on critical thinking? Were you taught to look at a text and analyze it? Were you taught to question things?

This has nothing to do with whether or not an individual chasidish woman can think critically, but rather whether the educational system as a whole places emphasis on critical thinking. I know you can only answer for your own school, but that's ok.