 |
|
 |
 |
|
|
Forum
-> The Social Scene
-> Chit Chat
flowerpower
|
 Sun, Feb 24 2008, 5:06 pm
|
close family, maybe. non relatives-not really. at work-for sure not. a first name is an invation for closeness and what not?
| |
|
| Back to top |
 0
 0
|
chocolate moose
|
Sun, Feb 24 2008, 5:36 pm
I'm loathe to call ppl younger than me Mr or Mrs, but hey, at this point in my life, there are plenty of drs and what not that are younger than me and that I DO call by their title .....
I think it's all in the relationship. I personally don't see tsnius playing a part in it, although I know some do....
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
mumoo
|
Sun, Feb 24 2008, 9:39 pm
| Crayon210 wrote: | I refer to men by first name when talking about them (it would be awkward to call my husband's friend Yosef "Mr. Schwartz"), and I don't really call them anything when speaking to them. But I would use Rabbi/Mr./Dr.
You're right about the familiarity, and I don't think it's so proper. |
I work at a kollel- lots of men- all of course call me Mrs. C. So one day when I called one of their wives, my friend, I heard him say to her, "Here, it's Shevy." It was weird hearing that.
I don't care about rank, position age or casualness. Louche said it depends on how close the social relationship is. That's what makes me uncomfortable. Should there even be a close social relationship between a married woman and a man?
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
mumoo
|
Sun, Feb 24 2008, 10:52 pm
|
Well, I like to think so, Crayon. But there are a lot of people in my community who disagree. They think because their intentions are pure, they trust themselves to behave like grownups. And, in fact, I don't see any of them jumping into bed with each other. So maybe they are not wrong. But I just feel like it blurs lines. Makes it easier to be too friendly, maybe flirty. But even if nothing leads anywhere, it still makes me uncomfortable. I wish I could explain it better.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
louche
|
Mon, Feb 25 2008, 4:56 am
| mumoo wrote: | | [ Should there even be a close social relationship between a married woman and a man? |
excuse me, but dh friends are my friends. I'm not about to call a person Mr. Gordon when dh calls him Manny. my neighbors whom I've known since elementary school are my friends. I'm not about to start calling good ole Marty Mr. Rosenberg just because we've both reached the age of majority. my friends and their husbands whom we have over and go over to them are my friends, and I'm not going to call my friend Leezie and her husband Mr. Schwartz. Nor am I about to call any relatives, or relatives of relatives, for that matter, Mr. SoandSo.
Social norms are different in different places. In Russia in the early 1900's, spouses called each other Mr. and Mrs. Most posters here would probably find that very weird and off-putting. Just as off-putting as members of my social circle would find addressing their family friends and neighbors as Mr. Soandso.
If you wish to see something evil in the fact that some people have a cordial social relationship with members of the opposite gender, go ahead. But where I come from, males comprise nearly half the world's population, and I am not going to pretend they don't exist, nor am I going to crawl into a corner and pretend I don't exist when they're around.
Ummm....what are you dubbing a "social relationship"? We're not dating, for goodness' sake! But when we have friends over for a shabbos meal, we're not about to split the table down gender lines and have women speak only to women and men only to men.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
Tehilla
|
Mon, Feb 25 2008, 5:14 am
in the terms of DH's friends, I try to always call them Reb and their first name, like Reb Yisroel. we didn't always do this, but there is a halacha regarding this situation. bli neder, I will look it up exactly if someone is interested. we have decided to become more careful about it in recent years, and has not presented a problem. as a matter of fact, it was someone at work who had instituted this practice and I do feel it has to do with tznius and appropriate distances.
although I like my husband's friends, they're definitely not "my" friends--I don't have male friends. most of their wives, are my friends. even in a conversation if referring to them, it is "My husband's friend..."
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
Tehilla
|
Mon, Feb 25 2008, 5:17 am
| Quote: | | Ummm....what are you dubbing a "social relationship"? We're not dating, for goodness' sake! But when we have friends over for a shabbos meal, we're not about to split the table down gender lines and have women speak only to women and men only to men. |
there are tznius & yichud laws for a reason, guidelines regarding proper amounts of conversation and closeness between opposite genders. I do not ignore the men at our Shabbos table by far, or my husband's friends. but I minimalize conversation with them and cultivate the friendships with their wives. my husband likewise minimalizes contact with the women.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
Ruchel
|
Mon, Feb 25 2008, 5:24 am
|
for many, first name doesn't mean close relationship. It just means the person is not a stranger.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
Ruchel
|
Mon, Feb 25 2008, 5:26 am
I'm tempted to try Reb at university.
Reb Christian, can I use your pen? Reb Sebastien can you give me the paper over there? 
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
sarahd
|
Mon, Feb 25 2008, 5:37 am
|
In social communication, I either don't call by name or else use Mr. At work not only would people think I'm out of my mind, it would be perceived as arrogant and rude. It would create more antagonism than distance. I figure I have already created distance by letting it be known that men should not touch me (people here are very touchy-feely/huggy-kissy) as well as by my mode of dress.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
mumoo
|
Mon, Feb 25 2008, 11:49 am
| Ruchel wrote: | I'm tempted to try Reb at university.
Reb Christian, can I use your pen? Reb Sebastien can you give me the paper over there? |
Why can't you say Mr. Smith? If you were kidding the smiley is a better emoticon, unless you meant that people who use titles are twisted.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
mumoo
|
Mon, Feb 25 2008, 11:52 am
| Tehilla wrote: | | Quote: | | Ummm....what are you dubbing a "social relationship"? We're not dating, for goodness' sake! But when we have friends over for a shabbos meal, we're not about to split the table down gender lines and have women speak only to women and men only to men. |
there are tznius & yichud laws for a reason, guidelines regarding proper amounts of conversation and closeness between opposite genders. I do not ignore the men at our Shabbos table by far, or my husband's friends. but I minimalize conversation with them and cultivate the friendships with their wives. my husband likewise minimalizes contact with the women. |
same conduct in my house. thank you for articulating that so well. Please try to post the halacha. I know there are mishnas (pirkei Avos) regarding conversation between men and women, and I always assumed that was to avoid familiarity.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
Ruchel
|
Mon, Feb 25 2008, 11:52 am
mister? really not possible, unless it's a teacher...
teacher is considered "above". But between pupils, or between teachers, first name basis...
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
mumoo
|
Mon, Feb 25 2008, 11:55 am
| louche wrote: | | If you wish to see something evil in the fact that some people have a cordial social relationship with members of the opposite gender, go ahead. |
do you have yichud with these men friends. if not, why not? where do you draw the line with what conduct is innocent and where it becomes, as you say, evil?
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
Ruchel
|
Mon, Feb 25 2008, 11:57 am
|
as long as halacha isn't violated (or twisted) it is good. My rav allows co-ed schools and male/female friendships if halacha is respected.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
Crayon210
|
Mon, Feb 25 2008, 11:58 am
| mumoo wrote: | | Well, I like to think so, Crayon. But there are a lot of people in my community who disagree. They think because their intentions are pure, they trust themselves to behave like grownups. And, in fact, I don't see any of them jumping into bed with each other. So maybe they are not wrong. But I just feel like it blurs lines. Makes it easier to be too friendly, maybe flirty. But even if nothing leads anywhere, it still makes me uncomfortable. I wish I could explain it better. |
I understand you completely.
A name is a personal thing, and just anyone using it makes a crack in a boundary. When telemarketers call, they often use your first name to make you feel at ease. When you're in a formal setting, you're often called Mrs. ___________.
All the rabbonim I have dealt with refer to me as Mrs. _______. I think it is most proper that way. I don't appreciate it when men who aren't my husband/family member call me by my first name (I am forgiving if someone doesn't have such a sensitivity).
It creates a distance that should be between members of the opposite gender. I read a letter to the editor in the N'shei Chabad Newsletter a few years ago in which the writer said that Rabbi Dubinsky (Rosh Yeshiva of the Lubavitch ba'al teshuva yeshiva in Morristown) spoke to the kollel wives in the community about the importance of not calling your husband's friends or your friends' husbands by their first name. He said yes, it is awkward, but it's supposed to be awkward to talk to another man! It made a great impact on me, and it's something I am careful about whenever possible.
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
Ruchel
|
Mon, Feb 25 2008, 12:01 pm
|
If you work it's very problematic if just talking to another man is awkward... you may be set apart, seen as haughty, or even not manage to talk your boss into a raise, a vacation when you want it...
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
Crayon210
|
Mon, Feb 25 2008, 12:05 pm
|
You can hold a socially appropriate conversation while maintaining boundaries (in this case, using a title for a man who's not your husband).
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
Ruchel
|
Mon, Feb 25 2008, 12:13 pm
|
I don't really know how to explain, but here you won't have normal coworker relationships if you use mister... it's just not done... it would be accepted from an old lady, like 60, but it's really not done...
| |
|
| Back to top |
0
0
|
|
Imamother may earn commission when you use our links to make a purchase.
© 2024 Imamother.com - All rights reserved
|  |
 |
|
 |
|
|
