When are you allowed to speak about others?

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Forum -> Judaism -> Halachic Questions and Discussions

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amother

Thu, Mar 06 2008, 1:31 pm

I thought this deserved a thread of its own.
I'm anonymous because I suspect I may end up discussing certain issues here that I'll want to remain private about

amother wrote:

I agree 100%. Besides, I'm allowed to speak of human beings and express my honest feelings about them. This thing just comes off as silly and dramatic, not to mention clumsily manipulative.

I don't think the story is true and I don't like the way it was done either.
However the above sentence is very disturbing.

you are not allowed to speak about other people , its called Loshon Hora!
and even when you are not saying anything bad but just yentering about them, its also wrong and can do damage![/quote]

amother

Thu, Mar 06 2008, 1:32 pm

Quote:

So we're never allowed to speak negatively of other human beings? That makes absolutely no sense. Everyone is perfect and wonderful now?

Quote:

you really mean to tell me you don't know what it means to speak loshon hora?
c'mon...

yes you are not allowed to speak negatively about other people. In fact you really aren't supposed to speak about people period!
what doesn't make sense about it?
why should you want to speak about them?
Is there a tachlis?

Quote:

Oh, okay. That Stalin. He...um...had a nice mustache? And Hitler like dogs. I hear Jeffrey Dahmer was a really good cook?

You're right, this feels good!

We are allowed to discuss people. You are wrong about the meaning of loshon hara. What kind of world would this be, if everyone was okay, no matter what they did or said?

amother wrote:

Quote:

Oh, okay. That Stalin. He...um...had a nice mustache? And Hitler like dogs. I hear Jeffrey Dahmer was a really good cook?

are you comparing those people to rabbonim???
because that's what this discussion was about and that's what your comment was in response to

Quote:

We are allowed to discuss people. You are wrong about the meaning of loshon hara. What kind of world would this be, if everyone was okay, no matter what they did or said?

what has not talking about people got to do with people being ok or not?
I don't follow your logic one bit.

btw I'm starting a new thread on this topic we can take it up there.

amother

Thu, Mar 06 2008, 1:37 pm

Quote:

No, I'm not comparing them to rabbonim. I'm saying that we are allowed to discuss people, any person. I may have used some over-the-top examples, but it's because I thought your comment about 100% not being allowed to talk about people seemed over-the-top.

I can talk about people, good people, smart people, as well as people who aren't so good and smart. There are dishonest people in all walks of life, as well as virtuous ones.

Quote:

you said we can talk about people in reference to a discussion that was about loshon hora about rabonim.

first of all you didn't say we can say good things about people

but second, you actually can't just stum talk about people if you really want to get to the nitty gritty of hilchos loshon hora.

for example if you say so and so is so smart and someone hears you that doesn't agree you may cause the person to have ill feelings or may cause them to speak negatively in response.
of course we aren't all on that level but you should just know this to know its not so simple the way you are putting it.

amother

Thu, Mar 06 2008, 1:44 pm

What is the purpose of this thread? Some people will see this one way, some people another way. Some people think it's positive to talk about flaws and virtues, as it gives us a moral or aspirational compass. Some will say that certain people are so special we can't even talk about them. Now that I know how you stand, what is the point of further discussion?

amother

Thu, Mar 06 2008, 1:47 pm

amother wrote:

What is the purpose of this thread?

look at the forum its in. Halachik questions and discussions

you (if you are the same amother) think we are allowed. and I learnt we aren't allowed. There are some knowledgable people on this forum, how about they too share what they learnt on the topic?

Quote:

Some people will see this one way, some people another way.

since we are on a frum forum, I should hope you are interested in how the torah sees it.

Quote:

Some people think it's positive to talk about flaws and virtues, as it gives us a moral or aspirational compass. Some will say that certain people are so special we can't even talk about them. Now that I know how you stand, what is the point of further discussion?

To get to the bottom of it and clarify since it seems there are yidden that aren't aware that you aren't allowed to speak loshon hora Confused

amother

Thu, Mar 06 2008, 1:49 pm

amother wrote:

What is the purpose of this thread?

Quote:

Some people will see this one way, some people another way.

since we are on a frum forum, I should hope you are interested in how the torah sees it.

Quote:

To get to the bottom of it and clarify since it seems there are yidden that aren't aware that you aren't allowed to speak loshon hora Confused

Does the Torah talk about pushing people around and intimidating them (through dramatic stories or angry internet posts), using halacha as a weapon? Does the Torah talk about Yidden who speak softly but carry heavy emoticons? Rolling Eyes

amother

Thu, Mar 06 2008, 1:54 pm

Quote:

Does the Torah talk about pushing people around and intimidating them (through dramatic stories or angry internet posts),using halacha as a weapon?

I already said I don't like the story, this is why I started a new thread. Can we stick to the topic?

Quote:

Does the Torah talk about Yidden who speak softly but carry heavy emoticons?

the emoticans express how I really feel.

I've never EVER come across a yid that will try and say you are allowed to speak loshon hora!

we all do it, its true, none of us are perfect, yet even when we do, I've never heard someone say that it's allowed.

Perhaps you just aren't being clear. to me it sounds like you are not differentiating between different kinds of "talking about people"

if what you want to say is we can say good things about people then I can better understand where you are coming from but considering the thread this conversation started in, it doesn't sound like that. would you care to clarify?

amother

Thu, Mar 06 2008, 1:56 pm

I'm totally confused

Where did I say that we couldn't say good about people? shock

I didn't discuss the issue of saying good about people. Rolling Eyes

I was simply talking about our right to discuss things that are negative, if negative things exist. Exclamation

amother

Thu, Mar 06 2008, 1:58 pm

I'm also totally confused.

please clarify for me, have you or haven't you learnt about the concept of loshon hora?

what does that mean to you?

chocolate moose

Thu, Mar 06 2008, 1:59 pm

I think loshon horah is subjective. You can's ossur all talk about other people.

amother

Thu, Mar 06 2008, 2:00 pm

chocolate moose wrote:

I think loshon horah is subjective. You can's ossur all talk about other people.

Chocolate just said exactly what I mean, in a nutshell. Thank you, CM.

amother

Thu, Mar 06 2008, 2:00 pm

changing colours now, and I'll stay this color to differentiate between amothers.

CM amother sounds like she is saying we can say whatever we like.

she hasn't yet clarified what she means

and amother I never said you said we couldn't talk good about people, read it again.

amother

Thu, Mar 06 2008, 2:00 pm

Oh, I left out the emoticon to express how I feel. Thank you, CM Yes

amother

Thu, Mar 06 2008, 2:03 pm

it sounds to me like some of you think you can just pick and choose when you can and can't talk about people without checking if its halachikly allowed.

I'm not saying I'm perfect, but lets just be honest about this.

people say assumedly innocent things about others all the time and we know that often innocent turns out to be damaging.

I personaly have been the victim of this kind of talk on a number of occasions.

Mimisinger

Thu, Mar 06 2008, 2:04 pm

That's ok, but CM is wrong. Loshon Hora is not subjective, there are many halachos regarding LH and hotzaas shem ra.

amother

Thu, Mar 06 2008, 2:05 pm

amother wrote:

I personaly have been the victim of this kind of talk on a number of occasions.

And it made you feel blue?

Sorry, just kidding.

I do think there are good and bad kinds of talk. But CM is right, it is very subjective. I, too, have been a victim of unkind talk. So have all of us. But it's a part of life, and I wouldn't want to have no right to talk about misdeeds or bad behavior, if it's appropriate.

amother

Thu, Mar 06 2008, 2:06 pm

right!
exactly how I learnt it. We aren't most of us aware of the full implications of what those halochos are but its dishonest to go around saying I can say whatever I want and simply denying the halachik aspect of it

amother

Thu, Mar 06 2008, 2:07 pm

my above post was in response to mimisinger

cassandra

Thu, Mar 06 2008, 2:08 pm

I feel so out of the loop.

What on earth are you all talking about?

Mimisinger

Thu, Mar 06 2008, 2:09 pm

Btw there is halacha about whether you can say good things about people...it depends on your meaning as well as the listeners. HALACHICALLY you CANNOT say good things about a person if the listener either does not like the person being discussed, or is the type of person to turn things around into being a bad thing. Perhaps we should start a thread about LH - a one a day halacha.

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