Did you live in Boro Park in the year 1964?

amother

Fri, Jul 02 2021, 10:50 am

amother [ Nemesia ] wrote:

There might have been pockets but many of the original people were still living there.

The OP questioned why there weren't yarmulkes and I was explaining why in terms of the demographics of the neighborhood. You are overstating the percentage of people as 1964 would have been at the cusp.

It was just starting - maybe a few years earlier than Midwood which but it did not in any way have teh density of population of extreme Orthodox Jews in that year.

I remember clearly what BP was like in 1964! I lived off 13th avenue. There was no BMT station and no Lofts candy store that I can recall. That specific photo with the politicians wasnt taken on 13th avenue. I think I have seen others that I recognize as 13th avenue, but not this one.

Boro Park was nothing like it is today, BUT its IMPOSSIBLE that a street in the heart of BP in 1964 would have had no clearly frum looking people.

amother

Nemesia

Fri, Jul 02 2021, 11:00 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

The percentage of overtly Jewish people was not as high and even the Orthodox Jews did not observe all of the "rituals". Many Orthodox men did not wear yarmulkes except at shul. Again this is not a judgment but just an observation of reality. They fit in with the crowd - as I wrote it was beginning to becoming much more stringent but those people would still represent a minority.

Many of the traditional middle class neighborhoods were losing property values as people were fleeing to the suburb. But that was just starting in 1964 and Borough Park was a bit more religious than Midwood in that era but still not at all what it is like today. Williamsburg and Crown Heights were still the exotic very orthodox neighborhoods.

What elevated property values in certain Brooklyn neighborhoods was the influx of frum families who could not flee to the suburbs. But it took awhile. Housing prices really declined in Midwood in the 1960's through the 1970's and then started taking off.

In terms of the original question, it would also be extremely unlikely that those few men who were the pioneers of the ultra-Orthodox starting to trickle in would be attending a political rally for Johnson in that year wherever it was held. If you had a candid of 13th Avenue in that year with normal foot traffic you might see a scattering on the street.

ETA - It was the West End line that served Borough Park. I know this because if I wanted to visit my friend in that neighborhood I either had to take the subway to Atlantic Avenue and then go back on the West End line or my father would have to drive me. I was served by the Brighton Beach line.

amother

Fri, Jul 02 2021, 11:12 am

amother [ Nemesia ] wrote:

Not in 1964, with Bais Yaakov of BP, already having 4 parallel classes of each grade.

In 1964, no students fathers walked the street with no Yarmulka. Maybe 1 or 2 of 100 fathers didnt wear Yarmulkas. I was in the school at that time. Throughout my 8 years ef elementary school in the 1960s, I never had even ONE classmate whose father didnt always wear his Yarmulka.

amother

Nemesia

Fri, Jul 02 2021, 11:15 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Not in 1964, with Bais Yaakov of BP, already having 4 parallel classes of each grade.

In 1964, no students fathers walked the street with no Yarmulka. Maybe 1 or 2 of 100 fathers didnt wear Yarmulkas. I was in the school at that time, I never had even ONE classmate whose father didnt always wear his Yarmulka.

Again you are talking about a small group of people who had moved in.

I was discussing the neighborhood as a whole at that point and the demographics of that time before it shifted to predominantly frum as opposed to minority frum.

I don't know how much clearer I can be that those moving in were still a relatively small percentage of the population in 1964.

amother

Fri, Jul 02 2021, 11:18 am

amother [ Nemesia ] wrote:

'

Youre describing Boro Park in 1944 or 1954, not in 1964.

In 1964 it was already heavily frum with Shuls, Yeshivas (huge Bais Yaakov, huge Etz Chaim 13/50), and kosher stores, all over the place!

The Sfardishe Shul and other Shuls were thriving with Yarmulka wearing people, who didnt remove their Yarmulkas (except for when they went to sleep).

There was not a seat to be found in the huge Beth El 15/49 that had Chazan Kousevitzky in the 60s.

It was different than today, but already heavily Orthodox in 1964.

amother

Honeydew

Fri, Jul 02 2021, 12:01 pm

amother [ Nemesia ] wrote:

In 1964 they were not a small percentage of the population. Boro Park was mainly frum by then but more yarmulka or hat wearing men than shtreimels and full chassidic levush you see today. It also didn't extend as far as it does now. Past 16th Ave toward 17th or 18th you were leaving the frum area. The higher 50's streets still had a lot of Italians then too.
You're confusing Boro Park with Midwood. Frum presence in Midwood was just starting in the mid to late 70's. What you're describing was Boro Park in 1954 or Midwood in 1974.

amother

Fri, Jul 02 2021, 12:12 pm

amother [ Honeydew ] wrote:

Yes, I agree.

amother

Fri, Jul 02 2021, 12:38 pm

amother [ Mint ] wrote:

https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryPorn/comments/57rmqh/lyndon_johnson_campaigns_with_robert_kennedy_in/

Someone on this Google thread suggests it's e18 and Church Ave. I think they're right. This is street view today. You can see that tower in the background. There's also that same train station but I didn't get it in the screenshot.

Thanks. To me a brick building I saw in the politicians photo I posted, looked familiar, so I thought its Church Avenue, not 13th avenue.

The next time I go there I want to compare the old buildings details with those in the photo.

I got stuck on proving that its being wrongly identified.

amother

Mint

Fri, Jul 02 2021, 1:18 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

If you search for Church Ave and E 18th Street on Google maps and select street view you should be able to see the buildings from your computer.

leah233

Fri, Jul 02 2021, 1:34 pm

I agree that neither the demographics nor the background match 13th & 48th in 1964 .I wasn't born yet then but spent enough time in BP in the 70s and know enough old time BP families to know that.

Look at the black and white picture on the link in the OP. Same politicians. Supposed to be same event but there you can clearly read the street sign saying 13th Avenue. Look how different the demographics of the crowd in that picture are. That picture is more reflective of what BP looked like then

Last edited by leah233 on Sun, Jul 04 2021, 12:45 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Fri, Jul 02 2021, 2:42 pm

leah233 wrote:

I agree that neither the demographics nor the background match 13th & 48th in 1964 .I wasn't yet born then but spent enough time in BP in the 70s and know enough old time BP families to know that.

Look at the black and white picture on the link in the OP. Same politicians. Supposed to be same event but there you can clearly read the street sign saying 13th Avenue. Look how different the demographics of the crowd in that picture are. That picture is more reflective of what BP looked like then

Thanks. End of confusion. BP 24's first paragraph was describing this picture, not the picture at the top of the page.

To all those who said that BP had few people wearing Yarmulkas in 1964, see above.

amother

Daphne

Fri, Jul 02 2021, 2:49 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Thanks. End of confusion. BP 24's first paragraph was describing this picture, not the picture at the top of the page.

Omg- I think I see my father. He was about 19 in 1964... or maybe that’s just how lots of young men looked back then. I can’t even ask him. He’s not alive anymore. Yes, this photo is clearly 13th Avenue and this picture makes sense.

faigie

Fri, Jul 02 2021, 3:16 pm

amother [ Nemesia ] wrote:

Nor would you as the neighborhood was not "frum" as anyone would understand it today. It was a Jewish neighborhood but even the Orthodox among them did not wear yarmulkes nor did the women wear head coverings. They also wore short sleeves and wore clothing that exposed their shoulder bones. They just dressed in the style of that era. They weren't immodest. If you look at pictures at Jewish women of that era, that is how they dressed.

By today's standards they would be considered to be very left wing MO - children generally went to after school Hebrew school and Sunday school and only a very few might go to one of the places like Yeshivah of Flatbush in lieu of public school.

This is not a value or any other kind of judgment - just a description of what the neighborhood was like back then. The neighborhood around Avenue J - FWIW - was pretty similar. It was mostly secular Jews who might at most go to synagogue on YK and RH. They wouldn't celebrate Xmas so there was a stark demarcation between the homes of the Italians and those of the Jewish families. From that neighborhood the would go to the Young Israel on Coney Island Avenue and Avenue I (or maybe it was H)

Boy is that description inaccurate. It was a solidly MO community. Men wore kilos, and most women did not cover their hair. The girls went to Shulamith, and the boys went to Etz Chaim. It’s very much like today in MO communities. Everyone went to shul. And temple bet el, with its wonderful choir, or young Israel. This was the Boro Park of my youth….I honestly don’t know where u got ur info from.

amother

Fri, Jul 02 2021, 3:53 pm

faigie wrote:

Even in 1964, way before BP became more frum, BP was more to the right than Modern Orthodox.

Bais Yaakov, in the center of Boro Park, had a parent body who in 1964 were "black hat", atypical for Modern Orthodox.

It was no Teaneck. Far from.

See photo. Thats not modern orthodox people you see.