Dear Julia, Im done with the topic, but my shock has

amother

Wallflower

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 4:53 pm

From my experience working with all types of people, children being respectful is correlated with the class society they grow up in. Lower class = less respect. Poorer = less respect. Unfortunately this applies in frum society as well, but to a lesser extent

chestnut

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 5:02 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

And despite that, her kids (except for Aron) are following her (or her money) like robots.

Including Aron, dear. And including her frum ex-husband.
OP, you are really naive if you think a frum kid in Aron's place would never behave in a terribor way in that conversation.
Unfortunately, being frum is absolutely not a guarantee of having respectful kids, shalom bayis, happiness in life, etc. There are plenty of respectful kids and really happy families among non Jews or non frum jews.

amother

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 5:12 pm

chestnut wrote:

Can we go off on a tangent to please Mrs Naive here, and can you tell me if you think theres an equal amount of infidelity in frum communities, as there is in non-frum Jewish, and not Jewish communities?

chestnut

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 5:19 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I don't have percentages, but you never know what goes on behind the closed doors. And if the percentage of infidelity, abuse, white collar crime is less, then what? It still exists, plenty, in frum circles and there are many, many non Jewish/non frum families who do none of that.
"All non jews are bad" that they teach kids in schools isn't such truth, after all.

amother

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 5:30 pm

chestnut wrote:

"All non jews are bad" that they teach kids in schools isn't such truth, after all.

Absolutely. But thats something kids figure out as soon as they get out into the world either in secular colleges or jobs.

Im no longer sheltered but I still think the percentages differ.

amother

Nemesia

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 5:44 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

15 to 20 percent of ppl cheat. I sure hope our numbers are lower!

chestnut

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 5:58 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Absolutely. But thats something kids figure out as soon as they get out into the world either in secular colleges or jobs.

Im no longer sheltered but I still think the percentages differ.

What's the point of teaching it to the kids if they realize it's a lie when they grow up? Can't it be a dangerous thing, like "Hm, if that's a lie, what else did they teach me that's a lie?" Do we really need to lower others to make us feel better?
As I said, even if the numbers differ, does it make you feel better? It doesn't make me feel better cause I'm aware all that can happen in my immediate or extended frum family or close friends, while everyone among my non jewish/non frum family/friends will be free of it. All of a sudden, percentages don't matter much, as long as it happens, while, ideally, it shouldn't.

amother

Nemesia

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 6:00 pm

chestnut wrote:

It's the values that matter, it's not insurance.

amother

Navyblue

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 6:04 pm

chestnut wrote:

I read an interesting idea in an article about a different topic: Talking statistics isn’t comforting when you/your family member are part of the statistic.

chestnut

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 6:08 pm

amother [ Nemesia ] wrote:

It's the values that matter, it's not insurance.

Exactly. Just cause a kid is frum, it's not a guarantee he/she's respectful towards their parents. The same is true about adults, just cause they're frum, not a guarantee against cheating, abuse, white collar crime, etc.
Aron is just a good kid, and obviously, brought up well.

amother

Dahlia

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 6:46 pm

It’s a show. All conversations where in front of a huge crew and tons of cameras. It’s Netflix. It’s huge. So it’s all rehearsed you don’t know what is are the conversations behind closed doors. Nevertheless I think Julia displayed very narcissistic behavior and mean spirited. The way she put out and treated the girl from monsey. She is very misguided and sadly made a poor decision to leave a wholesome way of life and the truth of the Tora for money and fame. And more sad is that she dragged her kids with her. Her youngest daughter is filmed in bed with a guy she just meet a week before. The frum community is not perfect but the Tora guides us to have a respected and normal life. And we live by the Tora and have a purpose and we know why we are here is this world. It’s not just to make a lot of money and have fun. At least we know it even if we don’t always follow it. The fact that we know it gives us boundaries. No frum girl will go to bed with a random guy. Unless she has problems. Sorry for rumbling on and on.

out-of-towner

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 6:52 pm

OP does have somewhat of a point though, although it's not exclusive to Frum Jews specifically, but on general people brought up with religion at the center of things do tend to have more of a value to respect their parents than not.

Case in point: I volunteered in a nursing home for a few summers as a teenager. Nobody in the nursing home was Frum (it was not a Kosher facility) but one lady did have a Frum daughter with KAH a large family and her children would come visit. I heard her say to another resident "I think it's wonderful that my grandchildren find it important to come visit Grandma." My thought was well duh, why wouldn't they? But not every culture has that value. Society values youth, but as Yidden we value the elderly so much that we are commanded to respect them! Okay granted we aren't the only society that commands respect for the elderly, but we are one such society. And it shows in the way that our elders are taken care of.

amother

Ghostwhite

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 7:04 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Absolutely. But thats something kids figure out as soon as they get out into the world either in secular colleges or jobs.

Im no longer sheltered but I still think the percentages differ.

but I don't want to teach my children by employing fake scare tactics. all they have to do is meet someone and realize I was lying to them because I thought that was how to keep them frum. why should they believe anything I say? It's actually a big pet peeve of my husband when he feels that non jews are painted as bad guys.

out-of-towner

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 7:07 pm

amother [ Ghostwhite ] wrote:

It's a Chinuch that comes from the home. Treat every human being as a Tzelem Elokim and then your kids will treat them as such as well. And will learn to look at the good in everyone.

amother

Pistachio

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 11:24 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Correct, please disregard the subject line, if that upsets you.

Its actually meant to be a message to us Imas on how grateful we should be for not having her temptations.

I am sure many frum people have her temptations.

amother

Seashell

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 11:51 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Personally, yes, I think so.
I mean, not all non-frum or nonJewish communities are the same. But if you look at regular middle class secular people, with professional jobs and stable backgrounds - yeah, I think you'll find the same amount of infidelity.
It's often a different type of infidelity. A frum husband won't necessarily publicly cheat with his coworker, but he may pay for it, for example.

Once upon a time, twenty or thirty years ago, I was young and believed frum people cheat less. A few decades later I am sorry to say I am not so sure at all.

(As an aside, a friend of ours worked at a cheap hotel at the reception desk and he was appalled at the number of charedi clients coming there with 'partners'. It happens).

amother

Seashell

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 11:53 pm

ally wrote:

Firstly, public school in one neighborhood cannot be extrapolated to all non jews.

I used to work for an extracurricular program that had regular classes and separate boys and girls classes which were attended by frum kids. Teachers would beg not to teach the boys only classes because they were chutzpahdik and difficult to control.

How would you feel if these people - who had actual experience with such kids - went around saying all frum kids are wild and ill mannered?

Similar experience. I've taught at frum schools (all boys and all girls) and at secular schools. The very very worst experience I ever had was at the all boys frum school. The secular school was way better.

amother

Seashell

Sun, Aug 01 2021, 11:58 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

I think so too.

I live in the middle of a very frum neighborhood with a public school nearby. The kids coming out of the public school use foul language every few words and think its hysterical, and play crazy loud boomboxes. If our kids would walk around anything like that, theyd get THROWN OUT OF SCHOOL faster than you can say Jackie Robinson.

I WENT to public school in the states. It all depends which public school and which classes. Yes there was a lot of foul language, because that's the culture. But the kids on the whole were great kids.

I now teach at public (secular Jewish) schools in Israel. Swearing and loud music depends on socio-economic level. A public school in a struggling area is not like a public school in a professional, middle class area.

And I want to say that some yeshiva kids do things that are totally unacceptable in public school. Smoking, for example. You wont see that at the better public schools here. Those that smoke are a tiny minority and need to do it in hiding. (The poorer neighborhood schools are a different story).

amother

DarkOrange

Mon, Aug 02 2021, 12:29 am

I would just like to reply to the comment upthread about converts doing it for the better life. I'm sure you didn't mean to smear an entire group but your assumptions are not true. My husband and I have been very involved with hundreds of geirim over the past decade. Most of them are not doing it for a better and easier life. They are doing something very hard and entering a system where some will always question their sincerity, and it will be ten times harder to find a shidduch for themselves or their children. Especially if they look ethnic.
Some have been introduced to Judaism by a boyfriend and then learn more and dump the not so frum boyfriend and keep learning. Some struggle years to learn to read and daven fluently. They may get distanced from their own parents who are not supportive. They spend money they don't have to move closer to a shul. And even though life becomes much more complicated many report feeling like THEY ARE DRAWN TO A TRUTH THAT THEY CANT IGNORE AND WANT A CLOSER RELATIONSHIP WITH HASHEM.