Improving Jewish Literature (merged)

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Raisin

Mon, Jul 28 2008, 3:09 am

http://www.cs.biu.ac.il/~mscha......html

some really interesting articles on chareidi literature today. Its by rachel Pomerantz, one of the very few frum writers who writes good stuff.

Tamiri

Mon, Jul 28 2008, 3:21 am

yy wrote:

mummiedearest wrote:

...she typed, crying hysterically, causing the milk to spill in the chicken salad she was to have brought to her third nephew's upsherin later that day with a smile....

"Sarale," Shmuely ventured.

"Yes, Shmuely, my husband?" she inquired.

"Sarale, don't cry hysterically," Shmuely comforted her.

"But Shmuely," she whined through clouded eyes and a slightly upturned upper lip, "these onions are burning my eyes."

"I understand, Sarale," Shmuely cajoled with sincere understanding as he sincerely stood under the fluorescent light that hung above them in the cold kitchen while they stood beneath it, "but what were we talking about again? I've lost my train of thought."

"Oh, Shmuely!" she cried through clenched teeth. "I have no idea what in the world we were talking about, but I don't think it was that important."

YY I am willing to toss all my non jewish (read: readable) non Jewish literature, for better or for worse, in favor of reading your creations. But first I will have to get me some Depends, for the old bladder isn't what it used to be. This is HYSTERICAL and reminds me why after a couple of attempts to read kosher literature, I gave up.

Tamiri

Mon, Jul 28 2008, 3:24 am

yy wrote:

The building where Artscroll headquarters is is looming and lumbers high over the highway. Shmuely resolutely enters and assertively approaches the front desk, where someone sat answering phones and filing her nails.

"Shalom, Artscroll," the receptionist intoned into the phone while still filing her nails. "Have a seat" she nodded to Shmuely without indicating any punctuation whatsoever or seeming to notice its absence while filing her nails and turning her attention back to her phone call.

I am seriously in pain here.

Tamiri

Mon, Jul 28 2008, 3:26 am

yy wrote:

And that's in a real book...

But I do hasten to add that the book COULD BE wonderful. It just needs revising, editing, revising again... until it is ready to be published. All good novels go through this process.

Yes after all that, they would just be left with the words "Chapter One".

Apple pie

Mon, Jul 28 2008, 3:52 am

Oy, this is the MOST hilarious thread ever!!!!!! Thanks for the laugh and for pinning down what is it that bothers me when reading many frum novels.

About the absence of real dilemmas, deep characters etc., could it be that the editorial rules are VERY strict or simply that they don't dare publish anything who might raise issues of concern in the frum world, or present frum life as less than ideal and frum people as real people with flaws etc.

leomom

Mon, Jul 28 2008, 8:35 am

Tamiri, thanks... I am so flattered that you have lost control of your bladder!! You are the second one to compliment me in this most personal manner.

Maybe I will write a whole novel (with mummiedearest) and send it to publishers... it will probably get published as is, and then the whole world can "enjoy" our fine literature.

And Apple Pie, maybe you should take a bathroom break now, while you are still dry. Very Happy

Thanks all, this has been loads of fun!

smilethere

Mon, Jul 28 2008, 9:09 am

Thank you to all the comments - ahh when will we get a good book?

actually thejewish ones I like best are the very very simple ones, without flourish, just to the point and warm. I can't say they are of a high literary standard but at least I am not exhausted when I finish reading.

one of the main reasons I go to non-jewish reading - is the historical aspect. I love reading about daily life in far off places and far off times (obviously only if the author has done research)

what about australia in the 1800's, england in the time of william the conqueror 1066....

I love finding out about different times!

one really nice book I read recently was a teenage book on the crusades, richard the lionheart and sultan saladin. it was totally clean - and hey it helped expand my knowledge of toldos yisroel! it was great!!

although I really try cutting down on my reading - last pregnancy I only read jewish books (with my husbands encouragement) I often thought I was going to break DOWN!

as someone that reads on average 7 books per week - please can you give some quality book advice - I really rather it would be jewish! it is totally true that the author (however kosher the book) leaves an impression and connection I would rather not have.

I am reading the works of a drunken immoral fellow, and enjoying it - what does that make me??

ClaRivka

Mon, Jul 28 2008, 9:22 am

smilethere- there's a thread abt good jewish book ideas in the reading room forum.

flowerpower

Mon, Jul 28 2008, 10:49 am

The jewish books back when I was a teenager was much better. The book was a piece of quality-well written and a good story. These days I can barely find a "good" book. I still refrain from reading non jewish novels for certain reasons.

LikeMeDoes

Mon, Jul 28 2008, 12:36 pm

Oh boy! This is one of my favourite pet peeves Smile

How about 'Heart Rythms', where the name of one of the main characters is spelled in two different ways, often both in the same paragraph?!

On the subject of (fairly) recently-published good books, I enjoyed 'Sun Inside Rain'. The topic was an original one, it was quite well edited and the characters were interesting.

Aidelmom

Mon, Jul 28 2008, 12:43 pm

Do people realize that authors and people working in publishing may be members of this site?

ChutzPAh

Mon, Jul 28 2008, 1:02 pm

Aidelmom- part of being an author is knowing that people will be analyzing their work, and if they don't have the stomach for critisism, they shouldn't be writing. If editors are reading this, that is good too. They should know that the Jewish reader demands better.

Aidelmom

Mon, Jul 28 2008, 1:05 pm

I agree with you. I'm just pointing this out so that people can tone it down a bit and keep it in mind.

mummiedearest

Mon, Jul 28 2008, 1:14 pm

yy wrote:

Sarale soon found out that her beloved husband exchanged words with another female. She was shocked and upset until she realized that she wasn't perfect either... she had worn sandals without socks when she was three. Oh, well, if Shmuely could forgive that, she could surely forgive an innocent conversation with the Artscoll secretary, even if it lasted more than the appropriate head-nod. After all, shalom bayis is an extremely important aspect of Jewish home life, and if there's one thing Sarale and Shmuely were in exact agreement on, it was that they both wanted to have a very Jewish home. Sarale unhysterically wiped away her theoretical tears. Now, where was that chicken salad?

OH, NO!!!!!!! The chicken salad was nowhere to be found, and the upsherin was in twenty minutes! Fortunately, they lived only fifteen minutes away from Glatt Chicken Salads Express, home of the Express Glatt Chicken Salads!!! Sarale new they would have to go over their monthly upsherin budget (kinehara, poo poo poo, they had a lot of nephews...)

But what's another twenty dollars here and there? The upsherin is what is important right now, thought Sarale. Yet something nudged at the back of Sarale's brilliant, sympathetic, and courageous mind. What if all our other twenty-five-hundred nephews like this chicken salad better than mine?! Oh, dear...

chaylizi

Mon, Jul 28 2008, 2:23 pm

you know my bladder isn't what it was either & btw you & the little potential tzadik/tzadeikes using it as a soccer ball.... someone should start an underwear gmach in the classified section for users.

mummiedearest

Mon, Jul 28 2008, 2:37 pm

Sarale, hearing her friend's mournful plea, decided that after the next fifteen years of upsherins, she would devote her life to philanthropy. She decided to open an underwear gemach. "No one else has one," she noted, " and there is such an obvious need for one."

hadasa

Mon, Jul 28 2008, 2:49 pm

Some of the books that seem to be badly written are actually translations. An inadequate translation can actually ruin the plot and the characters. Even though I read English more fluently, I prefer to read Hebrew books in the original, otherwise I often find myself back-translating into Hebrew, in order to figure out what the author really meant.

chaylizi

Mon, Jul 28 2008, 3:16 pm

just buy it in hebrew then. if it's english literature being marketed to english speaking people, it should be a quality translation. I might not have the best language and grammar skills, but I'm not writing books for others to buy. other mistakes are not language based. in one book, the main character makes himself a cup of coffee & then sips his tea for the whole next page. if on page 25 a man is named mr rosenfeld, then don't call him mr rosenberg later in the chapter. and a book is not a thesaurus, no one cares how many big words you know. they want to be able to read a book with a plot, minus the 40 cliches in each paragraph. also the plots are generally poorly thought out and very "frummy".

Raisin

Mon, Jul 28 2008, 3:23 pm

hadasa wrote:

duh. so get a good, native english speaking translator. That shouldnt be too difficult. you get the feeling they hire the publishers neice who did really well in her english bagrut and spent a summer in ny 5 years ago. Plus she could do with the extra cash. and she's cheap.

mummiedearest

Mon, Jul 28 2008, 3:30 pm

raisin, do you know sarale? you describe her to a t!!!

translations are a problem in any genre, any language. if you want to read a translation, you need someone who read the original to pick one out for you. translation reading requires a lot of research.

I think that because so many of our children's english education is lacking (to say the least), publishers feel the need to publish badly written books. you will notice that artscroll's edited literature textbooks do very well and are popular with catholic schools. of course, those stories in those books are secular stories, with certain words/phrases edited out. and artscroll is obviously smart enough not to replace "give 'em h*ll, boys" with "give them a really hard time in battle boys," so I think their lack of quality original literature is by choice.

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