Shaking hands in business world - dealing with Shomer Negiah

Squash

Mon, Apr 14 2008, 2:57 pm

we rented a condo from someone while on vacation and when he came to show us around, he naturally extended his hand. I just explained to him about our religion etc. and that was that. I don't think he was offended. just intrigued. I don't think he ever met a chassidishe woman before. lol.

Tehilla

Mon, Apr 14 2008, 3:02 pm

while it is important to find a way to refuse shaking hands without insulting or embarrassing, sometimes it will happen no matter what you say/do.

I would rather smooth things over with the person I refused to shake hands with than explain to Hashem why I shook so many hands. I am not saying anything about anyone who does. this is my own personal belief.

I am not embarrassed to be a yid, and just like I don't expect a person of another religion to sit down at my Shabbos meal and wash, bentsch, etc, nor do I compromise myself and my beliefs in their presence.

and as I said previously, B"H, it has always been very smooth or only slightly awkward for a few minutes. there are plenty of ways to convey professionalism and warmth without shaking hands. besides, where does it stop--will you also refuse a clap on the shoulder, a hug, etc? I worked for many years in the professional world, and I also observed my parents in their workplaces and it isn't just shaking hands in even the most professional places.

Squash

Mon, Apr 14 2008, 3:04 pm

Tehilla wrote:

.

I would rather smooth things over with the person I refused to shake hands with than explain to Hashem why I shook so many hands.

I am not embarrassed to be a yid, and just like I don't expect a person of another religion to sit down at my Shabbos meal and wash, bentsch, etc, nor do I compromise myself and my beliefs in their presence.

.

AMEN!

montrealmommy

Mon, Apr 14 2008, 3:31 pm

I am not embarrassed to explain myslef but like many others stated, in some business circles it is looked upon 'not well'. Many times when I work with frum people they will ask me - do you shake, and I will respond no. With old friends or family - I usually say my husband will pay me back later- he takes the guys and I take the girls, that way we get through the group faster (lol)!

In business, if I can avoid it, I do. If I feel the other person will undertand, I explain.

When I first becaem frum my Rav (and later other Rebbeim and mashiot) have reminded me that it is very very very important to avoid embarrassing another human being - do not embarrase a non jew because it can be perceived as a chillul Hashem (unless you can explain and know they will hear you). and it is forbidden to embarrase a jew for many reasons (one being it is like killing him) - so if completely unavoidable, bedieved, it is permissable to shake (according to my Rav), although lechatchila it is best to avoid such situations and shaking hands all together.

AlwaysGrateful

Mon, Apr 14 2008, 3:55 pm

Two stories:

1. One of my coworkers came up to me and asked me a "religious" question. She seemed a bit nervous (that's also her personality). I answered it, and then I stressed the fact that she should never feel "weird" to ask me anything, that I won't get "offended" or anything. Her response? "Oh, but that's why I asked you! I knew that you woudln't be offended - you're always so open and never embarrassed about talking about what you do religiously."

After years of being very open about my religious values and practices (including shomer negiah), that meant a lot.

2. I have a not-so-close relative who is not religious. He's a bit of a character. We were at a family get-together at one point and he started talking to me about the frum Jews he has met through his work. "It's great!" he said. "My friends and I always stick out our hands, and we get a real kick out of seeing how the orthodox women react. They usually look at your hand for a second, like a deer in the headlights. You watch the wheels turn in their head. And then, almost always, they reach out and take it anyway! My buddies and I always talk about it afterwards..."

He has lost a lot of respect for people who do this. I'm not saying that people who do shake hands (after asking a rav and honestly taking to heart what he says) are wrong. But that story seriously scared me. He had lost all faith in frum Jews, because when things get "hard" or "uncomfortable," they don't stick to what they believe in. At least, that's how he views it. He has no concept of "bdieved"...

marina

Mon, Apr 14 2008, 4:24 pm

Quote:

He has lost a lot of respect for people who do this. I'm not saying that people who do shake hands (after asking a rav and honestly taking to heart what he says) are wrong. But that story seriously scared me. He had lost all faith in frum Jews, because when things get "hard" or "uncomfortable," they don't stick to what they believe in. At least, that's how he views it. He has no concept of "bdieved

You know, I doubt he lost faith in frum Jews because women shake his hand. I think his issues probably go a bit further.

freidasima

Mon, Apr 14 2008, 4:26 pm

I shake, no problem. I don't initiate but I never embarrass anyone who puts out their hand. So I was taught by my father z"l. there is no inyan of niddah with a man who is not your husband, and if a man puts out his hand it is always a cultural thing of trust, never chiba...

Apple pie

Mon, Apr 14 2008, 5:23 pm

AlwaysGrateful wrote:

Two stories:

2. I have a not-so-close relative who is not religious. He's a bit of a character. We were at a family get-together at one point and he started talking to me about the frum Jews he has met through his work. "It's great!" he said. "My friends and I always stick out our hands, and we get a real kick out of seeing how the orthodox women react. They usually look at your hand for a second, like a deer in the headlights. You watch the wheels turn in their head. And then, almost always, they reach out and take it anyway! My buddies and I always talk about it afterwards..."

He has lost a lot of respect for people who do this. I'm not saying that people who do shake hands (after asking a rav and honestly taking to heart what he says) are wrong. But that story seriously scared me. He had lost all faith in frum Jews, because when things get "hard" or "uncomfortable," they don't stick to what they believe in. At least, that's how he views it. He has no concept of "bdieved"...

I second Marina.
I think your relative has some kind of problem, I don't know how to put it nicely. And I for sure would not be bothered by what kind of impression I would make on him Rolling Eyes

amother

Mon, Apr 14 2008, 5:25 pm

yentaof8 wrote:

THe Rebbe's response once was : My mother taught me not to touch what doesn't belong to me.
Another retort is "Where I'm from, We salute " and guesture a salute - a takeoff of the Japanese bow.

But how do you explain then that men can shake men's hand?

yentaof8

Mon, Apr 14 2008, 6:40 pm

I'm sorry I don't know the source off hand - We were just having this discussion over this past weekend and that was brought up - I will try to find it out. As for Men shaking Men, the point wasn't the reason for not shaking a woman's hand, just a polite way of expressing respect for not making oneself familiar with a woman by touching her. When a man touches a man, it's not supposed to trigger any deeper feeling whereas when oppposite genders touch it could and should which is why it is reserved only for a married couple.

bandcm

Mon, Apr 14 2008, 7:10 pm

I have this all the time where we live. We are the only frum people here.
I just say, "Oh I'm Jewish I dont shake hands with men", and then, as someone else mentioned, be really warm and friendly so they dont see it as personal.
Note - I do not say, Im religious so I dont shake hands, I say Im Jewish. All Jewish have to keep Torah and mitzvos, not just those who call themselves religious.
Oh, and the typical response from the men in Brazil - Oh, you dont shake hands, oh Im so sorry, my dear, I didnt know - (loving pat on my shoulder, loving touch on my arm.)

amother

Mon, Apr 14 2008, 7:17 pm

bandcm wrote:

Note - I do not say, Im religious so I dont shake hands, I say Im Jewish. All Jewish have to keep Torah and mitzvos, not just those who call themselves religious.

Not all Jews, or even all religious Jews, believe that we're not allowed to shake hands. Some of us do shake hands. So I don't understand this.

bandcm

Mon, Apr 14 2008, 7:23 pm

amother wrote:

bandcm wrote:

Note - I do not say, Im religious so I dont shake hands, I say Im Jewish. All Jewish have to keep Torah and mitzvos, not just those who call themselves religious.

Not all Jews, or even all religious Jews, believe that we're not allowed to shake hands. Some of us do shake hands. So I don't understand this.

I dont understand why you cannot identify yourself.
If you help me understand that, I might help you understand other things.