Financial protection for mothers and daughters

Mandy

Thu, Nov 03 2005, 7:16 pm

Quote:

having all girls develop a marketable skill solely for the purpose of being able to leave a horrible marriage or being able to provide if tragedy strikes sounds awful to me

Having to depend on someone else's
a.) intelligence
b.) education
c.) ambition
d.) luck in actually finding a job
e.) social skills nec. to keep the job
f.) work ethic nec. to keep the job

to make sure your children are fed and your bills are paid sounds awful to me.

Even women who are happily married, are sometimes happily married to husbands, who for one reason or another can not bring in a sufficient paycheck.

And my point about the kesuba was, if it is a type of pre-nup, why are prior arrangements ( bank accounts, etc) considered undesirable then ? If Judaism's marriage ceremony revolves around a document which is meant to protect women in case of a divorce, how bad can it actually be for the woman to protect herself and get a separate bank account and a job ?

stem

Thu, Nov 03 2005, 8:16 pm

Good point mandy.

I think that a woman who has something in her back pocket, in a form of a degree, or training in a profession, is a wise woman indeed, even if she never ends up using it. CH"V a woman can find herself unexpectedly widowed with children. Who's going to pay the mortgage? Who will buy their food? Will they have to be evicted and move into a relative's house? Will they survive on tzedaka? for how long? This is a horrible scenario, but I know of at least 2 cases where this happened.
About 2 bank accounts, I don't see anything wrong with it, but I don't really see a real value to it either. It's just a lifestyle choice.

chen

Fri, Nov 04 2005, 10:28 am

Motek wrote:

I want to live my life positively, rather than prepare myself and family for disaster

Then I assume you have neither a fire extinguisher nor life insurance, nor do you carry an umbrella. When you buy an extinguisher, you are not predicting gloom and doom: you are giving yourself the gift of peace of mind that in case of fire you can minimize the damage. Preparing for disaster IS living positively!

Motek wrote:

having all girls develop a marketable skill solely for the purpose of being able to leave a horrible marriage or being able to provide if tragedy strikes sounds awful to me

Did I say that was the sole purpose? Would the idea be more palatable if I had said: All women should have marketable skills to enable them to pay yeshiva tuition and give tzedaka?

Giving a girl marketable skills does not condemn her to working all her life; it gives her a choice. If she isn't given the skills, she has no choice.

Motek

Sun, Nov 06 2005, 3:48 pm

does anybody think that boys should learn all about childcare, cooking and household management because

Having to depend on their wives:
a) cooking
b) cleaning
c) organizational skills
d) parenting skills
e) baby care
f) interest in all the above
g) ability in all the above

to make sure their home is well-run and their children well-cared for physically and spiritually, is a good idea?

after all, what if the wife becomes sick or dies (G-d forbid) and he is left with children to care for or even just himself, as an older widower?

would you suggest it to the administration of your son's yeshiva?

is it a "dependency" on one's husband's brains, luck, etc. to pay the bills the issue at hand, or a division of labor in which the man fulfills his kesuba commitments to support his family and the woman fufills her obligations to husband and children?

Quote:

Preparing for disaster IS living positively!

interesting view!
how does it fit with bitachon - trusting in Hashem that all will be for the best?
and again, do any rabbis concur with your view about girls getting married later rather than earlier?

re a woman having something to fall back on - for some professions, not using one's skill/degree for years doesn't matter, but for other professions, the fact that you acquired skills/a degree X number of years ago and didn't use it, makes it practically worthless down the road

Quote:

Would the idea be more palatable if I had said: All women should have marketable skills to enable them to pay yeshiva tuition and give tzedaka?

It's not about whether it would be more palatable. It would change the topic of our discussion!

amother

Sun, Nov 06 2005, 4:12 pm

I have bitachon in hashem. I am also in a verbally/emotionally/ and sometimes physicaly abuisve marraige. I'm far from helpless, but I want my daughters to have the options I dont-I.e. something to fall back on.
statistics show that one who grows up in an abusive home is likely to end up in an abusive relationship themselves. I am doing my best to get them the help now to avoid this kind of relationship later. but as there are no guarantees, I want them to have choices. knowing they have a skill, even a rusty one, will help them . IF...
im tired of being threatened w/ "I wont pay mortgage, tuitions, gas, electric etc." I dont want my children living this way.

roza

Sun, Nov 06 2005, 4:45 pm

Motek wrote:

this stuff boys learn at home. yes, it does make their and their family's life easier- to have basic survival skills. (basic cooking, getting dress, basic cleaning). Most fathers, I guess, learn them anyway in marriage, this is not the same as learning a trade.

Woman's wellbeing and [thus] the wellbeing of her family is the priority and main intention in everything that the woman is doing (whether getting a degree, working outside of her home, opening her own checking account and etc.)

queen

Sun, Nov 06 2005, 11:38 pm

It's an important thing for girls today to have something in their back pocket. one never knows what Hashem sends their way and we must prepare our children as best as possible.

I have my own checking account however it's really my business account. I only use it (for personal stuff) on occasion to buy things which I'd feel badly asking my husband to spend on.

(for ex. I LOVE music and practically buy all new CD's as they hit the market. It gets expensive, however by spending "my own" money my husband doesn't have to get annoyed by knowing how much $$$ was spent, but still has a happy wife.)

amother

Mon, Nov 07 2005, 9:49 am

Motek wrote:

100%. Lo aleinu, wives get sick, men are widowed. Some men aren't zocheh to find their zivug and remain alone all their lives. Some men are zochech to find their zivug and their zivug needs their help.

It is heartbreaking to see a widower having to eat 3 meals a day in restaurants b/c he has no culinary skills. (yes, I have seen this. one of the men in question was well-off and may have been dining out by choice. the other was in a very bad financial position, but he was totally helpless in the kitchen after his wife was niftar. That's a crime!)

I would not want my daughter to marry a man who had none of the skills you listed, any more than I would want my son to marry a girl who was equally inept. Proficiency in evrything comes with practice, so I wouldn't expect any of them to be a cordon bleu chef and a licensed nanny, but I would most assuredly want both my children and their zivugim to have the basic domestic survival skills. That's part of becoming a mature adult.

My children all know how to operate a wash machine, vacuum cleaner, mop, stove, toilet plunger, screwdriver, needle and thread, etc. I wouldn't have any of them attempt to shorten the cuffs of a shabbos suit (a job for a professional, not a basic survival skill), but they can all sew a button. They all know to do cost-comparisons when shopping. They have all done some baby-sitting and they all know which end of a baby is up.

They don't necessarily have to like any of these activities. If they can afford in their adulthood to hire someone to change the lightbulbs while they bake a cake (or vice versa), gezunteh heit. But in the meantime, they are well on their way to being capable of self-management. (Not yet old enough to drive and not enough money to have a checking account, but that will come in time--hopefully well before they start thinking about shidduchim.)

ForeverYoung
Guest

Mon, Nov 07 2005, 9:52 am

Motek wrote:

As Roza pointed out, it's something that comes from living in a family.
However, in the worst case scenario, the man can hire somebody to do this for him.

But you can't hire anybody to pay your bills.
Recently there was an appeal here for a family: the father suddenly passed away, and the mother was left with NO MEANS of self-support what so ever.

And in case of obuse, lo aleinu,
A friend of mine was in an obusive marriage - the bank account was in the husband's MOTHER name. When she left, she left behind everything (couldn't carry much with her 2 hands, baby included). She got stuck with no money & the credit card bill.

sarahd

Tue, Nov 08 2005, 1:23 am

Who in their right mind would want to be stuck in a minimum-wage job, in which she will have to work more than full time to barely support her family, besides for being the only parent at home. What is going to keep that family from completely falling apart, when the mother is away from home all day and half the evening scrubbing floors?

Although you are right when you say that job skills not used for a long time will be rusty, it's easier to brush up on those skills than to learn from scratch, should it become necessary.

roza

Tue, Nov 08 2005, 7:33 am

hisorerus wrote:

I'm sorry, but cleaning help gets paid more per hour than I do in a skilled job. Admittedly, no one wants to be a cleaning lady, but I hope nobody wants to be divorced either!

only expirienced cleaning lady with good refernces and who works in rich households can make good money. and yes it's very draining (compare to the office job).

better to become a makeup artist or hairdresser...

ElTam

Tue, Nov 08 2005, 9:28 am

WHen you compare your wages to that of a cleaning lady, be sure to add in paid vacation time, sick time, and health insurance, none of which cleaning ladies get. Together they equal about 30% of your gross pay.

Plus, if you are in a traditional job setting, you and your boss are paying into Social Security. An off-the-books person will never see those benefits. Or a 401(k) or tuition reimbursements or 125 plans or any of the other benefits people in skilled occupations can expect.