Hawaii Date Line | Imamother

amother

Sun, Jan 09 2022, 9:40 pm

Anyone ever been there over shabbos? What did u do? Kept Fri and shabbos?

1091

Sun, Jan 09 2022, 9:47 pm

Yes. And no. Just shabbos.

Ellie7

Sun, Jan 09 2022, 9:52 pm

Been there many times over Shabbos. Kept regular Shabbos (like the few frum Jews who live there).

amother

Sun, Jan 09 2022, 9:58 pm

Ellie7 wrote:

Been there many times over Shabbos. Kept regular Shabbos (like the few frum Jews who live there).

Ty both.
We’re you advised by a rav or assumed because of minhag hamokom? Like it’s ttyl ok to go and just keep regular shabbos?

1091

Sun, Jan 09 2022, 10:06 pm

I think my dh looked into it. But we also spent shabbos w chabad and did what they did.

amother

Obsidian

Sun, Jan 09 2022, 11:25 pm

You need to ask, not everyone holds like this. If we were to go, we’d go to LA for the shabbos before and shabbos after so we can have max time without being there shabbos.

clowny

Sun, Jan 09 2022, 11:33 pm

amother [ Obsidian ] wrote:

You need to ask, not everyone holds like this. If we were to go, we’d go to LA for the shabbos before and shabbos after so we can have max time without being there shabbos.

That’s what we did. We were told it’s best if we don’t stay there shabbos. There’s a lot of shallahs involved.

amother

Slategray

Mon, Jan 10 2022, 12:21 am

Aylor

amother

Steelblue

Mon, Jan 10 2022, 12:28 am

I don’t understand the problem. The dateline does not go through any countries and it’s a construct of man, not Halacha. What is the issue? Sundown is sundown.

doctorima

Mon, Jan 10 2022, 12:31 am

Please AYLOR. You definitely shouldn't rely on some random online posters. Chabad's ruling is to only keep 1 day, but many other (most?) Rabbonim say to keep 2, while our Rav wasn't gung-ho about keeping 2 either. To avoid any issues, the best is to do like Obsidian and clowny mentioned above. If that doesn't work for you and you want to be in Hawaii on Thursday night/Friday, you need to discuss it with your LOR in advance.

Iymnok

Mon, Jan 10 2022, 12:47 am

Most opinions say it’s like the west coast. I understand that there is one opinion that calculates differently.
Most agree that Japan is not an issue either. The pacific islands between should be avoided.

amother

Opal

Mon, Jan 10 2022, 1:15 am

When we went to Australia, we were told we couldn’t fly on a certain day (I guess Sunday? I’m not sure) because the date line was at the border of Australia -
Meaning in Australia Sunday was Sunday, but in the water offshore Sunday was maybe safek Shabbos - or maybe definitely Shabbos??? I don’t remember all the details obviously but the point is there are complex issues so you should ask a shaila.

amother

Honeysuckle

Mon, Jan 10 2022, 1:21 am

Ask a Rabbi!
Many will advise not to be there on shabbos/safek shabbos at all

DrMom

Mon, Jan 10 2022, 1:31 am

Can somebody explain the issue?

I can understand why there would be an issue actually crossing the date line close to Shabbat, but once you are there, I'd assume you just adapt to the local time, the way you would adapt to any local time zone when you travel anywhere else.

There are Jews living in Hawaii who were not born there. Isn't this what they did?

Unless you are an astronaut orbiting the Earth several times in a short time interval (I know there have been several halachic rulings on this when Ilan Ramon z"l went into space), why would this be an issue?

PinkFridge

Mon, Jan 10 2022, 10:23 am

Yes! You MUST ask your own shailah, too many variables. Try Rabbi Dovid Heber of the Star K. If you're in EY Rabbi Mordechai Kuber. They've written the books.

amother

Mocha

Mon, Jan 10 2022, 11:34 am

We didn't stay for shabbos because yes, it's complicated. To answer those asking, the dateline is 180 degrees from the Prime Meridian at Greenwich. However, halachically, the Prime Meridian is Yerushalyim, so 180 degrees from Yerushalayim is the halachic dateline. Places that fall in between (which includes Hawaii) does in fact make for a wonky Halachic gray zone and you really need to ask a shaila if traveling there and planning to be there over shabbos.

naturalmom5

Mon, Jan 10 2022, 1:58 pm

my husband islaughing hysterically that ladies are discussing this

If anyone is interested

New York to Japan

A typical flight that leaves New York on Sunday at 1 PM arrives in Japan at 3 PM on Monday, local time. Rav Tukatzinsky’s date line as well as the International Date Line are crossed. During this flight, one does not experience a sunset. If one davened Mincha in New York on Sunday, upon arrival in Japan on what seems to be that same afternoon, having seen no sunset or sunrise one should say a tefilas nedava, preceded by saying the condition as mentioned above. Tefilin should be worn again with a bracha.

If the day that one left New York was Erev Rosh Chodesh, and the arrival day is Rosh Chodesh, upon crossing the date line one must include Ya’aleh Veyavo in the tefilas nedava, and say Hallel and Musaf.

If this trip took place during Sefiras Haomer, when crossing the date line in a westward direction, the date is pushed forward midday, and one so to speak loses a day. However, since the entire day is not lost, one should count the appropriate day without a bracha as soon as the date line is crossed. When nightfall comes, one may resume counting with a bracha. Assume that Sunday was the 10th day of the Omer and the trip began on Sunday afternoon. When he arrives on Monday afternoon in Japan, it is the 11th day of the Omer. He must count day number 11 that afternoon without a bracha. On Monday night one may resume counting day number 12 with a bracha.

If one left New York on a fast day, for example Asara Beteves, as the date line is crossed, the date is pushed forward from 10 Teves to 11 Teves. Although some poskim are of the opinion that the fast is over, it is preferable to try to follow all opinions and fast until nightfall. If this is too difficult, one should at least try to eat less than a shiur in the prescribed time. If this is also too difficult, one may rely on the poskim who permit one to break the fast as soon as the date line is crossed.

A common flight from Japan to New York leaves Japan on Monday morning at 10 AM and arrives in New York on Monday morning at 10 AM By leaving at 10 AM one has an opportunity to daven only Shacharis. As the traveler flies eastward, he will experience a sunset several hours into the flight. Mincha should be said before seeing sunset and Maariv must be said after dark.[143]. When the sun rises again several hours later, Birchos Hashachar must be said and tefilin must be donned with a bracha. Pesukei Dezimra are said, but the brachos of Pesukei Dezimra, as well as Birchos Krias Shma should be said mentally. A tefilas nedava should be said.

If one left Japan on 10 Teves and flew into 9 Teves, according to some poskim one may eat when crossing the date line, as he is now in a place where there is no obligation to fast. Others feel that once a fast begins, it may not be cut short midstream. It is preferable to follow this opinion and to continue the fast until nightfall. Nevertheless, since the fast was never completed satisfactorily on the 10th day of Teves, one must fast when he sees sunrise on the following morning, his second 10 Teves.

If one must stay in Japan over Shabbos, since we are dealing with the most stringent laws of the Torah, one should observe both Saturday and Sunday to satisfy all opinions.If one finds this too difficult, we advise the traveler to observe the complete Shabbos on Saturday, and refrain from at least melacha d’oraisa on Sunday. On Saturday the weekday tefila with the addition of Rtzeh etc. is to be said. Musaf should be said behirhur, mentally. Tefilin must be worn without a bracha in the privacy of one’s home, and the tnai must be said. On Sunday the weekday tefila is said (preferably with the addition of “Rtzeh etc.” as well) and tefilin are worn again without a bracha and the tnai should be said. Havdala is not recited until Sunday night.

New York to Korea and Australia
Korea and Australia are considered west of the date line according to Rav Tukatzinsky as well as the Chazon Ish. Therefore a flight to these locations entails crossing the date line. The order of tefila is identical to that mentioned above regarding a flight to Japan.

One who stays in Korea or Australia for Shabbos, keeps Shabbos on Saturday only. One may consider Sunday to be a weekday. However, there are a number of people who live in Australia who do not venture out to sea or go swimming on Sunday, because according to the Chazon Ish, the coastline is the date line, and while it may be Sunday on the land, it is Shabbos in the ocean. If one wishes to be stringent, and refrain from Melacha in Korea and in Australia on Sunday in areas east of the 125th meridian, it is certainly considered praiseworthy.

On the return trip, the date line is crossed causing a day to repeat itself. The schedule of tefilos are the same as mentioned above regarding the Japan to New York trip.

New York to Hawaii
On this trip, Rav Tukatzinsky’s date line is crossed. Therefore when one travels to Hawaii, the same rules that apply to the flight to Japan would apply here as well.

If one stays in Hawaii over the weekend, the same halachos that apply to the Japanese Saturday apply to the Hawaiian Saturday. Regarding the safek day, which is Friday, the same halachos that apply to Sunday in Japan, would apply to Friday in Hawaii.

amother

Broom

Mon, Jan 10 2022, 2:00 pm

doctorima wrote:

There’s a Chabad in Hawaii. Maybe the Rebbetzin is on here?

iyar

Mon, Jan 10 2022, 2:11 pm

DrMom wrote:

There isn't just an issue, there are lots of issues. Even figuring out where we consider the dateline to be isn't a simple question. Naturalmom gave you a great introduction to the subject, as long as you understand that's just the introduction. You could write a book on this, and people have.

amother

Hawthorn

Mon, Jan 10 2022, 2:19 pm

We kept shabbos regular, and on friday didnt do any deoraisa .