Hf autistic and chol hamoed trip

amother

Wed, Oct 12 2022, 3:35 pm

My HF autistic child is extremely sensory and cannot go to trips that all my other children can go on such as great adventures amusement parks. I want to make it up to him in someway so we agreed that I take him to do an activity when I come home my husband in the meantime is watching him. I feel badly but I have other children that I need to take care of today That would like to go out. He’s sort of OK with this arrangement but is saying that he’d like to be compensated by getting $30 and an ice cream and then he feels like that would be fair for him. I’m wondering if this is normal fair does this make sense?

amother

Cadetblue

Wed, Oct 12 2022, 4:09 pm

As the mother of a HFASD teen, be very, very careful about making deals. Because of the way these kids think, it is so easy for them to see all of life as one big wheeler-dealer market place and every time you make a deal, you are reinforcing this.

If you said an activity, don't let him be the one suggesting what and asking for cash. YOU decide what you are offering and put the offer on the table, take it or leave it. Don't let him run the show.

Another time, be very clear up front about what you are offering. "You don't want to go on this trip, that's fine. When we get home you and I will go for ice cream. I'm so proud of you for knowing what you need." End of story.

My son's therapist has been a huge help to us in coming to this understanding. It's so easy to make deals with these kids. And long term, it's so detrimental. Try and find a HFASD parenting expert to help you understand the way his brain works. It's a life changer.

amother

Hyssop

Wed, Oct 12 2022, 4:50 pm

Every kid with HFA is unique so I don’t think it’s a good idea to make assumptions about his thought process based on another child with HFA. From my perspective as a kid I wanted life to be fair. So I would have wanted to make sure whatever I did cost the same money as what everyone else was doing. I got upset when my parents spent more money on a sibling’s hobbies etc.

He is literally telling you that he wants things to be fair so I wouldn’t worry about him trying to manipulate you into a deal. He just wants to feel like whatever you give him is suited to him, but also is worth as much as whatever you are giving the other kids.

And yes you can go into the whole narrative about how life isn’t supposed to be fair like my mother always tried to do but guess what, that only made me frustrated. Why not use this as a chance to make him feel that he’s just as valuable as everyone else. And so you spend the same money that you would on everyone else.

I’m not sure you need an “HFA expert” to understand your kid. If you learn to listen to what they’re telling you you will learn so much.

amother

Hyssop

Wed, Oct 12 2022, 4:52 pm

amother Jasmine wrote:

So interesting. Can you expand more on why making deals is so detrimental?

My son's therapist actually encouraged us to make deals as a way to teach him that in all relationships there is a give and a get. It teaches him to be cognizant of others' needs and wants in the "deal making." As a parent, to be the only one who sets the parameters seems to be very unhealthy to me in the long run in training a child to be in a relationship and also a way to provoke conflict. Can you explain?

It sounds very controlling. And there are few things we autistics hate more than feeling like someone is trying to control us.

amother

Cadetblue

Wed, Oct 12 2022, 5:14 pm

amother Jasmine wrote:

Making deals turns everything into a very superficial give and get. I do this, you do that. It doesn't teach depth in relationships. With respect, I feel that your son's therapist is not correct here. It doesn't teach him to be cognizant of others' needs. It teaches him that he can get what he wants as long as he gives the other person what they want. He isn't thinking about what the other person needs. He's thinking about how he can best get his own needs.

I'm not a therapist so I don't fully understand the nuances but the therapist felt that he has to learn to do things for the right reasons and not for the superficial give and take.

It also becomes very manipulative like OP's discussion where her son feels he "deserves" a certain thing. It could be in this case he's right, I have no idea. But if everything in life is about what he deserves, his relationships will be seriously damaged.

My son's therapist encourages us very much to help do the right thing for the right reasons.
Tidy your room because it's nice to live in a tidy room. Not tidy your room so you can get pizza.
Go to shul because that's halacha not because you'll get a prize.

Using the deal system has a lot of other problems as well. For example, you'll reach the point where he won't do anything without asking "what's in it for me?"

We had our hesitations at the beginning but it has been a life changer for us.

We give him what he needs. It isn't about him not getting things. But nothing is dependent on something else. I won't say to him, you go to school on time and I'll take you out for ice cream.

OP's case is slightly different because he has missed out on something. You have to think though, that most kids who miss out won't demand cash, they'll want a similar experience. Giving a similar experience is fine. Paying him because he missed will possibly make him think that next time he misses he "deserves" a cash back. That's a very dangerous road to go down. What about the time when he feels he missed out and you feel he didn't? That's why I said you offer beforehand, make it super clear and don't bargain.

Every kid is different. For us this has been a life changer.

amother

Cadetblue

Wed, Oct 12 2022, 5:20 pm

amother Hyssop wrote:

It could be you wanted life to be fair but who says that making life fair is a good thing for a child to learn? At what point do you say, you're right, life sucks, you've just got to move on?

I do not make things fair. Ever. Every single one of my (double digit) family knows that they each get what they need and not what other people need. And it is not money based. With my HFASD son we've been discussing this for years. With time, he's absorbed it and he is able to see that what we give one has nothing to do with what we give another.

If I pay a high price for one kid to learn music and the second kid prefers to go swimming, does that mean I owe him the difference in price? Obviously that's absurd.

Using money to make him feel he is "valuable" is terrible. My husband grew up this way. It's the worst thing you can do to a child. Show him he's valuable by spending time with him, by indulging him in what he enjoys, by listening to him, by joining him in his passions, by praising him and loving him. Not by paying him.

Sadly, your post has made me feel even more strongly that you could do with an expert to work with. It's not only about listening to what your child is telling you. It's about using that knowledge to help the child grow to be the best person they can be.

amother

Wed, Oct 12 2022, 5:33 pm

This thread is super interesting! First post response I thought was so good then the next was good then the next! I guess this is why I always feel so confused with the autism. One person says ABA is the way then the next says absolutely not, then another says rewards then the other says they're detrimental. I wish I knew exactly what to do.

With my other kids I go based totally on Dina Friedman's parenting- it works perfectly. With this kid nothing works!

I totally understand the transactional approach - give and get - in a normal child is not the way to go. I never ever reward or punish as a Mehalach.

However with this son this approach works fine. I usually do set it up in advance - this time I did not. But yes, a lot of issues are solved with deal making. I try so hard to avoid this and it's not every single issue but big issues that come up such as chol hamoed, going to shul for yom tov and things that I simply must have him do I solve with a transaction.

BH day to day I steer clear of this.

I am so grateful to the posters who posted today. It means the world to me.

amother

Hyssop

Wed, Oct 12 2022, 5:42 pm

amother Cadetblue wrote:

Here’s the thing. Every child develops at their own pace, and it’s doubly so when it comes to autistic kids.

Op’s son is literally telling her that where he is right now, he sees her spending a different amount of money and time on his outing as him getting less than his siblings. Does op want to help him shift this mindset? Of course.

You seem to think that op giving him what he’s asking for is teaching him that spending money is how we show others they are valuable. But this is what op’s son already believes! It’s a mindset that comes naturally to many autistics.

So you’re right that there’s plenty op can do to help him recognize the other ways we show those we love how much we care for them. But what about the meantime? Why wouldn’t op want to help her son feel valued right now?

I am now an autistic adult. I was brought up by parents who had your mindset. Yes it clicked for me long ago that the money spent isn’t what’s important.

But I still remember how misunderstood and overlooked I felt as a child. And I firmly believe that op can meet her son’s needs right now even as she helps him shift his viewpoint for the future.

Also, I’m not looking to start an argument. But your tone feels very condescending. The fact is that I am considerably older than your child and I can see a lot more from my vantage point. Yes, you may have gotten your son to see your point of view a lot of the time. But you really won’t know the effect of your choice in strategies until your son is an adult and can reflect on how they impacted him.

amother

Hyssop

Wed, Oct 12 2022, 5:50 pm

amother OP wrote:

There are so many things in adult life that are transactional. Most of us go to work so that we will earn a paycheck. We clean the house because we actually want the house clean. We do favors for others, officially because we care about them and want to help them, but deep down for most of us aren’t we also counting on the favors coming back to us when we need them?

If there is something that he doesn’t want to do, but you need him to do, why wouldn’t you arrange a deal that works for both of you?

Obviously adults’ typical deal making is way more subtle than what a typical HFA boy is doing. And I never was an autistic boy. But it seems to me that the issue isn’t the deals. It’s the way the deals are done. And that can be addressed with some social skills coaching.

amother

Freesia

Wed, Oct 12 2022, 6:00 pm

I'd focus on the message of what he's saying. We have some quieter and sensory people in our family, and it took me some time to find some amazing activities they love that have the significance of the big ones. An afternoon in the local park is going to feel less than a day at an amusement park. But a visit to a museum or aquarium with an add on of a special offered experience feels amazing. Or an extended drive to amazing gardens. Or being able to choose something substantial at pottery painting. Or something simple like a walk in the park, but on the way you shop for his favorite foods.

And sometimes, one day you take the whole family to an amusement park, and those who really feel it's not for them and don't want to go don't. And another day, you take everyone on a hike, or pottery painting, and those who feel it's not for them don't go. So he's not the only one not being planned for. And you may find some of your other kids liking the quieter activities too.

amother

Cadetblue

Wed, Oct 12 2022, 6:12 pm

amother Hyssop wrote:

H

Also, I’m not looking to start an argument. But your tone feels very condescending. The fact is that I am considerably older than your child and I can see a lot more from my vantage point. Yes, you may have gotten your son to see your point of view a lot of the time. But you really won’t know the effect of your choice in strategies until your son is an adult and can reflect on how they impacted him.

I'm really sorry you feel that my tone is condescending. I really didn't mean it that way. Please forgive me.

The truth is in chinuch, you never know the effect of your choices. That's life. That's where consulting with someone with a wide range of experience is helpful.