What would you do if you were Ukrainian?

sequoia

Mon, Jan 09 2023, 8:07 am

Would you leave with the kids?
Send the kids abroad with grandparents and stay with your dh?
All stay together?

Different families make different choices, depending on the situation.

What do you think you would do?

WhatFor

Mon, Jan 09 2023, 8:15 am

I think no one really knows what they would definitely do until they actually encounter the situation. What does leaving mean to someone - does it mean going to stay with family in another country or does it mean going to live in a refugee camp in a country where you know no one?

All that said, I think (but don't know for sure) that I would leave. I base this on the fact that I tend to be more anxious and have a very low risk threshold for these types of things. If I had the option to go to family or even a Jewish organization that would provide my family with a safe haven, and the situation where I was presented with imminent danger, I could see myself leaving. This is what I assume. But I don't know for sure and hopefully I'll never be in a situation where this is a question.

Sending you love, hope you stay safe and make the the best decision for yourself.

sequoia

Mon, Jan 09 2023, 8:24 am

Is there a point at which you’d return — or divorce?
(Obviously I’m hoping this isn’t going to go on for years and years).

I recently saw a friend’s DH who was crying, he misses his wife and kids so much. They went to the Netherlands at the beginning of the war, so it’s been almost a year already.

Another family I know sent their 14-year-old with her grandparents to Prague, and mom goes to visit every couple of months. But then she comes back. I guess they made the decision to prioritize their marriage.

JLi

Mon, Jan 09 2023, 8:30 am

I would try to leave and smuggle/bribe my husband out of the country.
I would ask Da'as Torah if a Get is neccesary.

gila-rina

Mon, Jan 09 2023, 8:33 am

Definitely bring the kids to safety. As for myself, I think that is situational.

sequoia

Mon, Jan 09 2023, 8:35 am

JLi wrote:

I would try to leave and smuggle/bribe my husband out of the country.

Not very likely to work…

chestnut

Mon, Jan 09 2023, 8:41 am

sequoia wrote:

Not very likely to work…

Men of drafting age definitely left the country, so it must have worked for some

sequoia

Mon, Jan 09 2023, 8:47 am

chestnut wrote:

Men of drafting age definitely left the country, so it must have worked for some

Maybe they just look really young Smile

I mean, there are ways officially (certain volunteer programs, or having many kids), but very limited. Otherwise everyone would do it.

And bribing definitely won’t work — in fact, attempting that is the best way to get drafted immediately.

BatyaEsther

Mon, Jan 09 2023, 8:50 am

B”H I don’t have a clue.

I am not is someone else’s shoes and not in a position to to judge or think I know better. Furthermore, each case and situation is very different and individualized.
I feel like this question is similar to us looking back on our grandparents and saying how did they not leave Nazi Europe. How did they not escape/join an underground/hide/…..
sitting comfortably on our tuchasses we have no idea what we would do.

sequoia

Mon, Jan 09 2023, 8:55 am

Not that bad, BH… and the enemy is external (although far too close), which helps with morale.

But probably similar stress levels.

snooper86

Mon, Jan 09 2023, 8:56 am

I would have left at the first sign of anything with my husband and kids. I wouldn’t have waited to see how it plays out. But I’m just paranoid and I’m saying this from not being in the moment.

chestnut

Mon, Jan 09 2023, 10:49 am

sequoia wrote:

Maybe they just look really young Smile

I'm talking about the first weeks of the war. Bribes definitely worked then. Not sure about now.

cbsp

Mon, Jan 09 2023, 11:19 am

I don't know.

I spent my childhood in the 70's psyching myself up about where to hide and how to escape should another world war materialize.

I never envisioned being on the side looking in. I daven daily for you, Sequoia, and try not to forget that while life is going on as usual here, there are very many families being torn apart and worse.

So, I do think I would have done all I could to leave. If my husband would have had to stay behind I still would have left. Divorce wouldn't occur to me - how many other generations of yidden lived years, decades apart from a spouse due to war or other unforseen circumstances until they could be reunited? We have the luxury of mostly instantaneous communication these days - that alone could help keep the connection alive. I think, though, I would be too scared to return for visitations.

jerusalem90

Mon, Jan 09 2023, 1:06 pm

Hard question!

If I had little kids, I would never be able to send them away without me. If I had a fairly independent (normal I guess) 14 year old, that would be an option on the table.

If I thought my kids were in danger, I would leave with them (if they were little) or at least send them away (if they were big).

If I were single or married without children, it would really depend on how much I had to gain and how much I had to lose.

If I were renting, and in a career where I could find work for the same or more money in another country, then I would certainly leave at the first opportunity.

VS if I owned my own house or had a career that was very Ukraine-specific, then I'd be a lot more tempted to try to wait it out.

I moved from the US to Israel as a young adult, so I'm probably more inclined to move than most people. For the life of me, I can't understand why people stay in NYC...

hodeez

Mon, Jan 09 2023, 1:09 pm

Have my husband identify as a woman and leave with my whole family

Raisin

Mon, Jan 09 2023, 1:30 pm

I guess everyone makes their own decisions. I know someone whose mother (I think she is in her 50s, not elderly) has remained in Ukraine because she won't leave her pet. I'm not a pet owner so I don't get this at all. Hopefully she will be safe.

It seems very common to stay behind to look after elderly relatives who won't or can't leave.

I guess other factors include language skills, mobility, etc. Not wanting your kids to experience war.

I don't know what I would do.

sequoia

Mon, Jan 09 2023, 1:33 pm

hodeez wrote:

Have my husband identify as a woman and leave with my whole family

I did see some trans people in Lviv.

Oh, I know this girl who goes by “he” and a male name and she fled on like the first day. Suddenly you’re a girl Twisted Evil

byisrael

Mon, Jan 09 2023, 2:11 pm

I know that early in the war there where frum people involved in smuggling men out - is that over?

I think it would depend on where I lived. assuming it was a place seeing active fighting/ rockets.

If I had small children I would leave with them and travel back and forth as much as possible. I believe that small children need there parents and I would not put them in danger.

If I did not have small children I would let them be involved on the decision.

I think that if I did not have children who where at risk I would stay with my husband, but I do not think I would risk my children if there was a way to get them to saftey.

I am in Israel, and when there where rocket attacks where we lived we left to a quieter part of the country. This was before iron dome when things where significantly more dangerous, but I do not think I really have the guts to stay put my children in danger, even when I believe in it ideologically.
I also think that if there was a strong chance of russian invasion in my specific area I would flee the area even without my husband.
I would not be one of those women arming up.

The russians are brutal, vicious, and anti-semites and I don't think a jewish women has a chance of not being r**ped and brutalized and probably murdered. In the case that my husband is not allowed to leave and there is an imminent invasion, I would probably ask for a get, so that I don't end up an agunah and we would hopefully remarry once the danger passed.

Sequia, my heart bleeds for you and all the other jews dealing with these heart wrenching decisions.

iyar

Mon, Jan 09 2023, 4:02 pm

BatyaEsther wrote:

Our situation is very different today than it was in Nazi Europe.
Many families then escaped or hid, though it was mainly single young men who joined partisans. If you study that time period historically you'll notice most of the families who escaped either had large sums of money or family in the West or both. Many of the ones who stayed behind literally didn't have the money to pay for the train tickets and ship crossings to get to safety with all their children.
There were also cases of the best laid plans not working out. Families fled from Germany and Poland to Belgium and France. Hitler followed them and sent them to the gas chambers from there. Families hid and were betrayed and turned over to the Nazis. Anne Frank's family is probably the most famous. People took their life savings and fled from Germany on the St Louis. They were turned away by immigration authorities in Cuba, the U.S. and Canada. Many of them died after they were forced to return to Europe.
The situation today is totally different. Poverty isn't as rampant even in Eastern Europe. Most people could get on a train and get out at the start of the war. Neighboring countries welcomed them with open arms offering food, clothing and places to stay. Israel airlifted thousands of Ukrainians and helped them settle in Israel after the fighting started, a big percentage of them not Jewish. There was no State of Israel sending planes to pick up refugees in 1939.
If I had the money for the train to get myself and my kids out I'd have done that even if I had to leave my husband behind. I know that even if I didn't want to, he'd want me to get our kids out. If my kids were all adults I'd encourage them to leave but I'd stay with my husband. He's a smart guy though. In the chaos of the start of the war there were men who managed to get out. I'm dreaming he would have been one of the lucky ones.
Of course we can never really know what would happen or what we'd decide in any given situation. Most importantly none of us know what's decreed for us and how long we have here. In the end it's not in our hands.

giftedmom

Mon, Jan 09 2023, 4:03 pm

sequoia wrote:

Leave with the kids and have dh smuggle over the border