S/o minhagim being taken too far.

watergirl

Tue, Apr 11 2023, 9:02 am

scintilla wrote:

You are correct. However you misunderstood my point there. I was bringing in matza to show how when you think about it, many many things we do as Jews don't really make sense and you can call it all 'insanity', including the mitzvah d'oraisa of eating matza. I'm not using it as an example of either a chumra or minhag.

I got your point. I was saying that a lot of the crazy things we do are d'Oraisa and don't need or can't be explained at all and not only make zero sense to us, but don't have to make sense. It's totally unlike (making up something here so I don't offend anyone) not wearing grey on Pesach because in the city where my family lived, there was no grey dye available, or a relative thought kids looked bad in grey so we only dress in lively colors... etc.

I'm saying, I think it's extremely important to make sure the things we do are in line with halacha. The way we do this is by asking our own Daas Torah. So if my mother tells me that the new grey dress I bought my toddler can't be worn on Pesach, I need to ask my Daas Torah before continuing to do this and consider it a minhag or a chumrah.

To what I said upthread, I'm willing to bet many of these "new" minhagim (started this or last two generations) , if run by your Daas Torah, you would be told not to continue as it's dangerous to make up new things.

scintilla

Tue, Apr 11 2023, 9:07 am

watergirl wrote:

Ok I understand. You have a good point. And I don't think you are talking about the minhagim that I was talking about. I'm Chabad and we have pretty restrictive minhagim, at least in comparison to many others, and these minhagim have been passed down for several generations already.

And even with what you have said, it is still important to be respectful of other's minhagim. Even if they might not classify as minhagim 100%. Perhaps they should talk to their rav. Still doesn't make it nice to call them crazy or insane.

amother

Moccasin

Tue, Apr 11 2023, 9:11 am

A family member was learning about minhagim on pesach & it said, if someone is doing something that an ancestor did based on a set of circumstances that is not applicable today for example people who don't eat garlic because years ago they planted with wheat & found kernels, or not using things that used to contain kitnyos but dont anymore, one does not have to follow it today but it is still praiseworthy if you do if it is possible.

My husband has easier minhagim (like no garlic, peeling veg) & harder (personal chumros his father took on plus a custom that basically does not allow any veg other than some root veg & apples).

The latter was causing a lot on resentment. I got married and I was told Pesach is equated with hunger, and everyone used to complain weeks in advance about how they hated it.
So we made the joint decision to stop being machmir on the Customs that were causing people to hate the holiday, in our own home.

watergirl

Tue, Apr 11 2023, 9:14 am

scintilla wrote:

I agree with you 100% on this. Especially when it comes to Chabad, who is the first address we all turn to if we missed a layover and are stuck in a random city and need help, and especially when it comes to Satmar who is the first one we all go to when we are in need of one of the many chassadim they do (like bikur cholim meals in so many hospitals around the world!). I am not Chabad and I am not Satmar, but I know they both get knocked for what they do and everyone forgets it when we need them.

amother

Tue, Apr 11 2023, 9:18 am

amother Moccasin wrote:

Very sensible. The main thing is that it should be an enjoyable chag without having a mental breakdown cv. Just because years ago they didn't have something doesn't make it wrong to use. Ask a Rav you'll be surprised. I'd need about 20 tablecloths and tons of dishes if I didn't use plastics on pesach. The amount of grape juice spillages at seder alone! And I'd be forever in the kitchen washing up. Why? Because they didn't have it years ago, or it MIGHT contain corn starch. Which doesn't even go into the food, and if it did is not proper Chometz, it's kitniyos so even more lenient. I feel that people are making it harder when all they need to do is ask a Rav. Change things for your son's and daughters in law.

amother

Tue, Apr 11 2023, 9:24 am

amother Saddlebrown wrote:

Minhagim, chumros. Whatever you call them, my pesach would look unrecognizable to you. It literally looks like a different holiday-the way we observe it seems that different than the way you do

Oy. I'll be making sure that my daughter marries a guy who uses everything with a reliable klp hechsher, like she's used to!
My sisters in law family are traumatised from their pesach at home. All the girls married men who brock and are way less stringent.
My sister who married into their family changed a lot too, my bil is fine with it. They limit it still, no fizzy drinks or whatever but they don't squeeze their own juice like my mil did, they buy crisps and chocolate. They use ground nuts, her mil cracked her own.

keym

Tue, Apr 11 2023, 9:28 am

amother Moccasin wrote:

I was discussing this concept with a Rav.
He pointed out that for 200 years, my grandparents said the tefilla for the well-being of the Czar every Shabbos - maybe that's a minhag. Obviously they stopped when he was killed and we don't do it now, because it's just not relevant.

The Rav was commenting that minhagim like kiyniyos or peeling themselves deal with a potential chashash of chametz (even remotely) so it's appropriate to keep.
But minhagim like garlic, or fish that used to be preserved in alcohol, or eating only products that were available to my grandparents poor village - well it was never about chametz, just practicality.
And the same way great-grandpa stopped saying the tefilla for the Czar when it was no longer applicable.....

The Rav was talking about when family members start feeling resentment (hunger, exhaustion)

amother

Hawthorn

Tue, Apr 11 2023, 9:31 am

The plastics thing was weird because they said they do have kids use disposables...they just don't let their serving spoon touch the disposables. So plastics aren't totally off limits? I'm willing to bet they have appliances that have plastic parts anyway, it's very difficult to ensure you have absolutely no plastic at all in your kitchen. Probably the packaging on foodstuff from grocery is also mostly plastic etc

amother

Beige

Tue, Apr 11 2023, 9:38 am

amother Candycane wrote:

Yes. Hechsherim rely on kulos.
I have heard that even if there is cornstarch it’s not a problem which I want to look into for next year.

Excuse me.

My father is one of the worlds leading kashrus professionals. The Badatz Yerushalayim Eidah HaChareidus, Chassidish, Chabad leaders rely on his word.

High quality hechsherim DO NOT rely on Kulos for Pesach.

Yours is a post that is a great example of misinformation that can hurt people; women can read and believe it’s falsehood, and needlessly create tremendous stress due to your lie.

My father works on Pesach productions all year round. The hechsherim he is involved with are extremely strict about their Pesach certifications.

One example: There are ingredients referred to as Group 1, which do not need a hechsher. For example, water, fruits, many chemicals, etc. All year round, there is much less oversight of factories that manufacture/ package Group Ones. For Pesach, there’s far more oversight, even though, for example, a factory that does nothing but make apple butter, whose only ingredients are apples and water, cannot possibly have any chometz or Kitniyos on its premises, the Hechsherim still oversee production far more carefully for Pesach than year round.

amother

Sand

Tue, Apr 11 2023, 9:44 am

amother OP wrote:

Sorry for my wording.
I still believe that's it's extremely far fetched not to use plastics. I'm shocked that it's a thing.
I wonder what the Rabbonim think of it. Making pesach must be very very difficult, almost impossible, with all these extra chumras.

I grew up without plastic. At that point they were saying that a lot of plastic is recycled and possibly from chometz.
My parents did start using now especially cuz you can find most plastic with a hechsher.

amother

Blonde

Tue, Apr 11 2023, 9:45 am

amother Candycane wrote:

Maybe try understanding before you call it narishkeit.
We do use a mixer because the part that touches the food is metal but some family members don’t
We don’t use sandwich bags

My sister doesn't use plastic either because her husband's family minhug. But he bought enough fancy tablecloths for the entire yom tov. She also uses real dishes for dairy and he got her a dishwasher so she doesnt overwork! Not all men are horrible and some are really sensitive. She does use a food processor because he understands it. He also helps her out a ton to cook before pesach because he appreciates that she appreciates the minhgum...

amother

Petunia

Tue, Apr 11 2023, 9:52 am

scintilla wrote:

Who says it's the men? I'm so tired of this attitude. I love my Pesach minhagim, they seem restrictive on the outside and they do take extra work but they're my mesorah and I love them, AND we have delicious food the entire Pesach. No one is forcing it on me and I personally resent the insinuation that I don't value these minhagim myself and fully buy into the whole system. My kids are just fine, especially considering that I and everyone else I know in my community is not strict with kids until they're a little older.

Also, big difference between chumros and minhagim. Don't conflate the two.

And it's quite rude to call someone else's family/religious group mesorah 'insanity'. None of Judaism really makes sense when you think about it. Our ancestors didn't have time to bake their bread so now we don't eat anything with flour for 8 days?? Sounds pretty extreme!! We do it because it's our beautiful precious mesorah and if you don't like it, don't become Chabad or whatever group/family doesn't do plastic.

Basically just respect please.

I'm perfectly fine with any "insanity" that is from Hashem, but when people just make things up that have nothing to do with what is required by Hashem, why does thay need to be treated as just as valid as d'oraisah halacha? It's not the same, and it is a major problem when people lump it all together.

amother

Sand

Tue, Apr 11 2023, 9:54 am

amother Candycane wrote:

Yes. Hechsherim rely on kulos.
I have heard that even if there is cornstarch it’s not a problem which I want to look into for next year.

Not sure which ones you are talking about but I know a relative of mine works for the basalts yerushalayim eida hachareidis and he told us a company that made I think either bags or silver foil (I don’t remember the item for sure it was a few years ago) and they weren’t allowed to sell it because on the packaging it said kosher l’pesach but it also had a picture of challah I think. And the head of the hechsher didn’t want to let something for pesach with a picture of chometz.

amother

Petunia

Tue, Apr 11 2023, 9:56 am

amother Junglegreen wrote:

Op by your logic we should be able to use electricity shabbos because it’s a new invention that wasn’t applicable when shabbos was commanded.

We don’t have many chumros but you can’t knock others with this logic when most of our lifestyle doesn’t abide by logic.

There are actual melacha involved with electricity on Shabbos. Seriously, how you compare what op is saying to being mechalel Shabbos?

watergirl

Tue, Apr 11 2023, 9:59 am

amother Petunia wrote:

There are actual melacha involved with electricity on Shabbos. Seriously, how you compare what op is saying to being mechalel Shabbos?

I think this person who said this does not have an understanding of how the 39 melachos apply today. Another reason it's scary to see halacha, chumras, minhag, mesorah, and preference all conflated - people don't learn about basic halacha in some places.