S/o Menswear who decided this?

amother

Tue, May 16 2023, 9:55 am

I don't get it. Who decided that a certain time frame represents what men should keep wearing? Just because they wore that in Europe what makes it better for now?

I get it, we want to be dignified and tznius but why does that mean white shirt black pants?

We don't have the same concept for women. Women dress modestly whole incorporating current fashion. Why is this different for men?

sequoia

Tue, May 16 2023, 10:06 am

It’s not like that everywhere.

Here in Kyiv I know a man who is so committed to Torah and mitzvos and halacha, davens with a minyan while working full time in an office, learns for several hours every day, helps every Jew, and he wears t-shirts and jeans and has no plans to switch. It just doesn’t matter.

shabbatiscoming

Tue, May 16 2023, 10:10 am

amother OP wrote:

Its only different for men in the haredi world. Orherwise, men wear what they want. And it says nothing about their observance or how much torah they may learn.

amother

Sienna

Tue, May 16 2023, 10:16 am

I don't think the litvish "uniform" is inconsistent, except for the hat. The idea is dressing as he would to go to see a dignitary, for something important, etc. A white button down shirt and black/dark pants is how a completely secular non Jewish job coach recently rold my son to dress for a job fair, and wearing a sports coat or suit is recommended for many interviews or nice dinners. Basically, the issue would be more with dressing more formally than an anachronism. Again, except for the hat.

amother

Clear

Tue, May 16 2023, 10:17 am

I don't know why, I read your title as mens underwear! And I was thinking, yeah who decided that these need to be the underwear that's acceptable (chassidish- short sleeve undershirts and white long gatches).
Dh got married with those. Thank Gd he was "brave" enough to give it up after a while.
Now when my boys become Bar Mitzvah new underwear isn't even on the shopping list. They continue wearing their tank undershirts and colored boxers.

Men's clothing in general? My question is less on the white shirt black pants. That's considered dressed formally and respectfully even in the non Jewish world.

My question is more on the specific type of hat, rekel, bekeshe, shtreimel etc... I agree with you. At what era was it decided to freeze the current mode of dress and make this the standard for eternity?

Also, I think this whole emphasis on dress is a more recent invention. I was looking back at pictures of my very chassidish grandfather. Pre war it seems like he is wearing a hat similar to what a biber hit looks like. After the war at his wedding he's wearing a smaller fedora style hat, clean shaven and short jacket. Later on he switched to a more chassidish look. So basically it seems that he kind of dressed the way he felt like.
His grandchildren now though are in biber hitten and lange rekels and it would be scandalous if anyone decided to change.
I see this pattern on both sides, my grandfather and dh's. (Both not alive anymore.)

amother

Tue, May 16 2023, 11:30 am

amother Clear wrote:

The bolded, exactly!

Yes even more so for the whole chassidish levish (I am chassidish but I'm also wondering about even more the idea of white shirt/ black pants as well)

amother

Crocus

Tue, May 16 2023, 11:34 am

amother Sienna wrote:

But the hat is an anachronism. In western society, it's actually rude to wear a hat indoors. And nowadays in the US, only gangsters and p-imps wear felt fedoras. It's not respectable at all. It was in the 1940s and 50s, but now it sends a completely different message.

Male Chassidim and yeshivish men simply got stuck in the uniform of when their brand of Judaism was invented. I don't know why.

amother

Seagreen

Tue, May 16 2023, 11:35 am

lamplighter wrote:

I don't see inconsistency in the groups that wear white and black. It's about wearing formal clothes with no emphasis on fashion/trends.
Why this hat or that hat, beats me.

And in terms of the hat, well, in the early to mid 1900s (and perhaps later?) it was unheard of and unacceptable in general non Jewish society for a man to even enter a restaurant and consider dining without a hat. It was considered proper attire.

amother

Tue, May 16 2023, 11:37 am

amother Seagreen wrote:

ok, but now it's not. So who decided we need to keep doing what was acceptable 100 years ago?

amother

Crocus

Tue, May 16 2023, 11:38 am

amother Seagreen wrote:

A hat was proper attire outside, never inside.

amother

Tue, May 16 2023, 11:40 am

amother Sienna wrote:

Firstly a colored shirt and any dark pants (even beige) would be just as dignified.

Secondly why do men need to dress like they are visiting dignitaries all the time while women don't? Are you always ready to greet a queen/ king?

shabbatiscoming

Tue, May 16 2023, 11:46 am

amother Seagreen wrote:

That is simple not true. Outside everyone would have their heads covered. But once inside, the hat eould come off. It would have been considered rude to leave a hat on inside.

goldfish1

Tue, May 16 2023, 11:54 am

I heard an interesting podcast about this on Halacha Headlines - about where the dress code comes from and why we keep it. I agree with the Hashkafa of a dress code per se but I do think the 'box' has gotten smaller and smaller and I think a LOT of it has more to do with fashion and wanting to fit in than following the dress code.

I walked past a bunch of chassidish men the other day who were all wearing EXACTLY the same shoes (and it was noticeable bc they were interesting shoes). Why are they all wearing these chassidish shoes? For tznius reasons? Kedusha purposes? No juts because that's what everyone else wears. Because for them it's fashionable. (that's not against chassisdim it was just an example).

shabbatiscoming

Tue, May 16 2023, 11:59 am

goldfish1 wrote:

I dont think all the chasidic men are wearing bekeshes and streimels to fit in. Its their dress code.
Same for charedi guys. "The levush" just is black and white. Once someone changes that levush, they are not holding in the same place.
Its very sad, buts how it goes.

amother

Floralwhite

Tue, May 16 2023, 12:00 pm

amother OP wrote:

Secondly why do men need to dress like they are visiting dignitaries all the time while women don't? Are you always ready to greet a queen/ king?

I think because they are davening 3 times a day and talking to hashem - so makes sense to be wearing dignified clothing the whole day.

amother

Hyacinth

Tue, May 16 2023, 12:05 pm

amother OP wrote:

ok, but now it's not. So who decided we need to keep doing what was acceptable 100 years ago?

We do the same for the women, albeit in a different time period. We decided that the 1960-1970s was the ideal tznius styles, and we use that as a baseline to measure everything that follows.

Except where we want to change up history, of course. We pretend that our parents didnt wear knee socks till age 12, and ignore that their skirts just barely covered their knees (have my Satmar Williamsburg parents wedding albums as evidence) and that little kids didn't wear short sleeves till about age 5-6. We vehemently deny that of course, and pretend that the new extremism is our long-held tradition.