How to deal with inflexible/stubborn child?

amother

Turquoise

Fri, Jul 14 2023, 12:59 am

amother Seafoam wrote:

It seems to me you’re having a very difficult time with a child and therefore are not understanding the method we are proposing. Please understand it doesn’t have to require 2hrs of full attention on one child (once you learn and become efficient in a new method). It will actually decrease the trauma other children experience when they see a loving, calm parent supporting and helping their sibling as opposed to threatening and implementing consequences. What would you rather hear between your kids “Your such an idiot, it’s not yours, you had your turn. I’m going to go destroy your Lego set, if you don’t give me a turn right now!” Or “ I see it’s really hard for you to stop playing and want more time. I’ll help you. How about I give you an extra 5 minutes . We can set a timer for 5 minutes and then it’s my turn and then we can do it together “ . As a parent which would you rather hear? How you deal with your child is how your other children will deal with him. Insisting on consequences will wreck havoc in your home more than model respectful, supportive and understanding ways between everyone. Will it work like magic overnight? NO of course not, especially if it’s a new modality in your home. But the better you get at it and more consistent you are the more of a shift you will see in the dynamics in the entire home environment. I agree with the poster above and not sure why you believe the other kids need consequences either. Shifting to a supportive and loving method for all your kids will alleviate the chaos you fear. Of course they need boundaries and can rule the roost but the manner in which you do it will make all the difference in the dynamics in the household. It will take a lot of work and patience on your part but in the end will be the greatest reward.

I fully understand the method you are proposing and I use it with my kids.

It does not work with every child. That is what you do not understand. Of course the "I see it’s really hard for you to stop playing and want more time. I’ll help you. How about I give you an extra 5 minutes . We can set a timer for 5 minutes and then it’s my turn and then we can do it together" is the better approach, but there are children who will grunt at you when you say it and physically attack you when you do it, and who see the extra five minutes as you giving in.

This person said it perfectly:

amother Steelblue wrote:

The problem is that the child doesn't understand the concept of authority and rules. He will NOT learn it with constant indulgence of every disruptive behavior. No matter how one is feeling, boundaries have to be respected. And a parent has to respect the child enough to believe that they are capable of respecting boundaries. Otherwise the child is being set up for failure in life.

Some children literally do not understand these concepts. Supporting their feelings and trying to help them work through it A reinforces the concept that there is no authority and no boundaries, everything is negotiable and people will always work with you. B since they do not see anything wrong with what they did they also see no reason to accept help in figuring out what's going on and working through it, and therefore refuse to cooperate.

The goal in parenting is always this, as you said:

amother Seafoam wrote:

Understand the child’s needs behind the behavior, support and help him through it. Let all the other kids see that they are safe in their home and will be helped and supported if/when they are having a hard time.

But what you don't understand is that in some cases making it clear that one of the children is safe and will be helped and supported no matter what, means that the other children realize that they are not safe because even if they are hurt the person who hurt them will be helped and supported.

We can understand the child's needs but not be able to provide those needs while keeping the other children safe, or not be able to provide those needs because the child does not allow them to be provided.

In OP's case the child maybe needed help to pick up the earring backs, and to identify that they are overwhelming, but the child doesn't want to accept the help. The child maybe needs to go to sleep earlier and he is overtired and that's why he is acting out, but he is not allowing OP to help him go to sleep earlier. He maybe needs help identifying and expressing his feelings and what is going on, but he won't talk to her, which means she can't help him identify what's going on and she can't give him the appropriate words or work with him to find an appropriate way to express it. She can't offer him support for his feelings because other than him saying that he can't help since it'll ruin the lesson he's trying to teach her, he hasn't really told her what's going on inside him.

amother Seafoam wrote:

Where do you think he learnt the concept of “punishing” his mother to get what he wants??? Consequences/punishments teach, “do as I say or there will be a price to pay” = abuse. Being understanding and supportive, helping a child through their difficulties and being flexible in our expectations, is what will create understanding, supportive loving spouses.

You are right here that he learned at home, in school, and in society that there is a concept of "punishing" others. However the fact that he believes that he can "punish" his mother reflects either exposure to a very sick society (sometimes kids at school) which empowers children to abuse and control those older and in authority positions, or a complete lack of understanding of how society works.

Consequences and punishments are not always abuse. Sometimes they are exactly what good parenting is. Sometimes refraining from punishing a child is abuse.
חוסך שבטו שונא בנו
(Obviously I don't support using an actual rod on a child. "Shivto" is widely understood to mean punishment in general.)
Our job as parents is to prepare our children to live in and integrate into society. Teaching them that there are no boundaries is not an effective way to do that and children (I am a teacher btw and see this in classrooms - not just mine - and in the yard at recess) whose parents do as you are suggesting even in scenarios such as the one I describe and the one OP describes, end up on the edges of society, violent, aggressive, miserable, always getting into trouble, never stable. Children need to know that there are enforced boundaries in order to feel safe. They need to know that there are predictable consequences for their actions. The safest place to learn this is at home. A child who does not learn this at home will experience it outside the home and not fully be able to understand what happened and why there is a discrepancy. He will be confused and feel unsafe, unsupported, unprotected.

Also, you can be supportive and understanding while still enforcing consequences and sometimes even punishments.

imasinger

Fri, Jul 14 2023, 8:17 am

I think Turquoise and Seafoam are closer to agreement than Turquoise thinks.

I didn't see Seafoam say to always give in the rigid child, or that rules aren't important, and consequences don't count. Of course everyone needs to be safe!

It's just that safety is more likely to happen when a challenging child feels understood, and when frustration can be cut down to the size where mastery can occur over time and practice.

It's about looking carefully at the child (and the rest of the family), picking your battles, and making sure that they are set up so that the rigid child can succeed.

The whole family benefits from that.

amother

Turquoise

Fri, Jul 14 2023, 8:47 am

imasinger wrote:

Seafoam literally said:

amother Seafoam wrote:

Consequences/punishments teach, “do as I say or there will be a price to pay” = abuse.

I don't need to be told that "safety is more likely to happen when a challenging child feels understood, and when frustration can be cut down to the size where mastery can occur over time and practice." Nor do I need to be told to look carefully at the child and the rest of the family, pick battles, and make sure that everything is set up to allow the rigid child to succeed.

I know all that. I use this method. So does OP, btw.

That's just not the issue here.

imasinger

Fri, Jul 14 2023, 8:49 am

Ok, so what is the issue here?

And does it need a separate thread?

Because OP came back, noted that yes, there were good points raised by those that suggested looking for where in the situation to reach and teach, maybe there were methods of handling the situation without hefkering all rules, but without being overly strict either.

Last edited by imasinger on Fri, Jul 14 2023, 8:51 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Turquoise

Fri, Jul 14 2023, 8:51 am

amother OP wrote:

Thank you again for all of the helpful responses. I appreciate the insight, ideas and strategy suggestions and I'm going to try to implement some of them.

Also seafoam, you are right; I did yell at him in a severe tone when he was pulling levers in the car, something I cannot remember the last time I have ever done (literally years), and that is when he silently left and went on his revenge rampage. That is probably the root of why he wants to "punish" me, thanks for helping me connect the dots. You've made some great points and you seem to have good insight into rigid children, but I still don't understand your belief of not providing consequences - how practically do you set and maintain boundaries without them? I can understand that with a lot of positivity and flexibility, you can avoid them 99% of the time, but there will always be that (at least) 1% of the time when nothing else works and there are no other options. I am curious to hear how you reconcile that.

So he's punishing you for yelling when he deliberately did something dangerous. When you haven't yelled in years.

I just want to underline that for everyone else.

Usually when a non-yelling parent yells the child understands that something is very dangerous and severe and respects that.

giftedmom

Fri, Jul 14 2023, 8:52 am

amother OP wrote:

My 9 year old gets so stuck on things - it is making life so frustrating. For example, we were having a lot of trouble getting him to bed on time, so together we agreed that we would try for a (later) 9:30 bedtime. He was very excited and was cooperating. But when I told him this is just a summer bedtime, he got upset and said "if it's not going to be for school too, then it's not worth it for me to follow the bedtime." I tried explaining to him that he needs to follow the bedtime either way, that he'll lose privileges if he doesn't, that we can reevaluate his school bedtime at the end of the summer, etc.

But no. He kept repeating that it's not worth it for him if it's just a summer bedtime.

Another example is he was in the bath and delaying getting out. He had been stuck the whole night on the idea of us buying him a saw - asking us over and over. I came into the bathroom and asked him to start washing, but he just kept asking about the saw. I took the shampoo and started washing his hair. Then he got upset and said "now I'm not washing because you started washing me without my permission". Again, I tried explaining how he will lose privileges if he's not out and in bed soon, etc. but he just kept repeating that he's not washing bec' I washed him without permission.

These types of scenarios happen all day long. I have him scheduled to start play therapy with a psychologist soon, but would love any suggestions in the meantime from mothers who have children with cognitive flexibility challenges.

Have you had him evaluated at all? Because this seems a bit on the ASD spectrum to me.
ETA read a bit more and seems more likely. But also you seem quite rigid yourself so maybe have yourself evaluated as well. This seems to be a clash of same personalities.

Last edited by giftedmom on Fri, Jul 14 2023, 9:02 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Turquoise

Fri, Jul 14 2023, 8:56 am

imasinger wrote:

Yes OP acknowledged that there were good points made and that she was open to using and is currently using some of these methods.

But note that this isn't helping this specific child.

BTW I agree with seafoam's overall outlook, I just don't think it works for every child. She disagrees with me and thinks that my outlook is abusive and stems from me being in the trenches and therefore incapable of understanding the method she is proposing.

imasinger

Fri, Jul 14 2023, 9:54 am

I'll say this last thing then bow out.

Every one of us in the trenches makes mistakes. All the time. And our challenging kids make us regret it far more than when the parent of an easier kid makes a mistake.

I would say I feel like a terrible parent at least half the time. And when I post on threads like these, I'm talking to myself as much as to anyone.

The reason I say you're not in such disagreement is that the rigidity in some kids leads to a need for increased flexibility from us who care for them. I'll let Seafoam speak for herself, but I doubt she was saying your approach never ever works, and I doubt you were saying that heavy consequences are always the way to go.

amother

Fri, Jul 14 2023, 11:25 am

amother Turquoise wrote:

This seems to be the root of the whole escalation. DH had a talk with him last night and was able to get him to understand and agree that children cannot take revenge on parents no matter how upset they are and that he needs to do teshuva by apologizing and cleaning up, but he kept insisting that "Mommy needs to do teshuva first for yelling at me". We tried explaining that parents' job is to keep children safe and even though Mommy tries very hard to almost never yell, because it was a dangerous situation, I had no choice. He still couldn't move past that thought though of me needing to do teshuva. In general, this is a big issue for him. Any type of authority that he perceives as "being mean" or "not liking him", he immediately shuts down to and refuses to comply with at all (big issue in school).

Anyways, to make a long story short we went on a long walk and talked about all the exciting things we're going to do this summer and cuddled at bedtime and in the morning when I offered again to help him clean up, he happily did.

Going back to my most recent post though and my question for seafoam (and anyone else who can offer insight!), after having established that I try my best to do positive parenting most of the time, and that for the long term, he will be starting therapy and will have an evaluation, in the meantime there are still situations in which I need him to cooperate and nothing seems to work. I see that consequences backfired this time (they have been effective at different times in the past depending on the situation, so maybe there is a better way of implementing them?) but then WHAT should I do in these situations? For example - 2 parts of this whole saga:

1. In the car, when he was in an escalation and pulling levers while I was trying to drive. No amount of distraction or attempts at positivity could make him stop. I could not physically remove him from the car. What choice did I have besides yell? (Not driving was not an option.)

2. With bedtime, this has been an ongoing issue that we had attempted collaboration on (had a discussion and agreed on a bedtime), offered incentives for (reward chart), given plenty of leeway on, provided structure and routine for, made it as enjoyable as possible (reading, cuddles, etc.) but still at the end of the day he refused to cooperate.

amother

Steelblue

Fri, Jul 14 2023, 11:32 am

amother OP wrote:

1. In the car, when he was in an escalation and pulling levers while I was trying to drive. No amount of distraction or attempts at positivity could make him stop. I could not physically remove him from the car. What choice did I have besides yell? (Not driving was not an option.)

IMO dangerous, out of control behavior that the parent can't stop calls for immediate intervention, whether that's Hatzolah or something else. BH you were able to get him to stop by yelling. He needs to understand that he cannot do dangerous, out of control things. That a parent's job, first and foremost, is to keep everyone safe, whatever they need to do in order to do so.

Teshuva is not something a person does for someone else. It's something they do for themselves, and a parent's obligation in chinuch means they teach their children to do teshuva when they do the wrong thing. DH needs to tell DS that he is not mechanech you, only you are mechanech him. He doesn't get to decide when someone else has to do teshuva, but you as parents do get to tell him because he's your responsibility. He's not there yet, but you can drill it into him slowly that this is the way the world is supposed to work.

ETA I don't think you have to justify yelling to him. His problem is that he thinks he's "allowed" to judge authority figures, decide if they treated him right or wrong, and listen or not listen accordingly. So don't feed into that: drill into him that no matter how it's presented to him, by the simple fact that you're his parents he needs to listen to you. And that Hashem made the world that way, and it's best for everyone, and when he's a parent and has more life experience than his children, he will also make the decisions that are good for them and they will need to listen.

TwinsMommy

Fri, Jul 14 2023, 11:40 am

When my kids are dangerous in the car, I pull over and wait. If that makes us late for something, so be it.

amother

Seafoam

Fri, Jul 14 2023, 11:43 am

amother Turquoise wrote:

Turquoise I do NOT think your way is abusive. I said and will continue to say eventhough I know better, I myself resort to “your way “(or worse) many times, because I DO have a child like this! I really do and I do understand what you describe but I don’t agree with your outlook on ODD. I don’t want to get into a huge debate about the cause of ODD. I will just say there is no blood test to dx ODD it is a cluster of behaviors. ODD is also very common in kids with ADHD. There have been many studies that show ODD occurs when children , often those with ADHD are punished by adults for things that they have no control over (like impulsiveness ). The child therefore lose all respect for adults since the adults behave in a way that makes no sense. Would you trust and respect an authority figure that penalized you for breathing? Of course not! That’s how these kids feel. It’s not that there is a neurological block, that there is an inability to understand. It is because that the adults whose care they are in, have caused them to lose trust and respect in them. I think that’s the difference in our outlook. I just want to clarify . I didn’t mean to say bringing punishments equals abuse , but it can create a unsupportive spouse that thinks “too bad you have to do your job”. I live with a spouse like that (and want to divorce). He was raised in a house full of punishments and has zero understanding , compassion, or care for any of us that are having a hard time with something. It is a form of emotional abuse. Had he been raised with understanding, love , and support through his hardships we prob wouldn’t have such a difficult marriage or difficult children. Don’t scream at me but I have learnt after 2 decades of dealing with challenging children that the difficult/challenging child is often a symptom of a greater dysfunction within the family system. It’s the family system that needs repair, not necessarily the child. I know a huge factor in the dysfunction in my family system is because my husband was raised with no understanding , or support (and my responses to his inability for empathy have not been healthy either ). I’m mixing a lot of different things here but they are often all connected.
to clarify :
1)YES I have more challenging kids then you can possibly imagine with challenges that far exceeds what any of you have written
2) I do not think giving consequences are abusive (but I do think they are ineffective and can cause more harm to both mother and child )
3) eventhough I know a better way to deal with these children , I am talking to myself when I write these comments. I am FAR from perfect. I have many stressors and limited patience. I often do not respond in ways I am writing we should.
4) I do believe that we should be working in the way I suggest even if I mess up a lot , that is my goal and my journey

amother

Seafoam

Fri, Jul 14 2023, 11:48 am

TwinsMommy wrote:

When my kids are dangerous in the car, I pull over and wait. If that makes us late for something, so be it.

So do I ! I don’t consider that a consequence. I consider that a loving responsible mother that’s going to ensure everyone is safe

amother

Seafoam

Fri, Jul 14 2023, 11:51 am

imasinger wrote:

1000% agree

amother

Fri, Jul 14 2023, 11:53 am

amother Seafoam wrote:

3) eventhough I know a better way to deal with these children , I am talking to myself when I write these comments. I am FAR from perfect. I have many stressors and limited patience. I often do not respond in ways I am writing we should.

so WHAT is the better way to deal with him in these situations? I agree with you and like I said several times, I try to parent positively as much as I can, but what is the better way in those very few situations where nothing else works? I keep trying to pin you down on this part, but I'm not getting a direct answer.

amother

Fri, Jul 14 2023, 11:56 am

TwinsMommy wrote:

When my kids are dangerous in the car, I pull over and wait. If that makes us late for something, so be it.

The problem is that when he is mentally stuck, he doesn't get unstuck. We were in the driveway trying to leave to take another child to a party. If I had waited (which I did for 20 minutes), he would have just kept at what he was doing and the other child and the whole carpool we needed to pickup would have missed the party.

amother

Seafoam

Fri, Jul 14 2023, 12:07 pm

amother OP wrote:

OP great work! You just answered your own question without realizing it! You see when you had a calm, loving talk when he wasn’t dysregulated and in the heat of the moment, your connection love and cuddles made it easier for him to clean up. So in regards to the car/driving issue be proactive and do not discuss things that will upset him and lead to such behaviors if possible. Do not discuss or remind him about the “consequences “ while you are driving. If you feel you need to implement a consequence wait until you are able to be fully present to discuss it, not when you are driving.
In regards to bedtime that’s a decision you have to make if it’s worth the power struggle. I don’t make it an argument. In my home it’s a fact. It has always been this way since they were toddlers. Yes I got the “it’s not fair Everybody else goes to sleep later” but I tell my kids that I’m not anybody else’s mother …. Bedtime has always been a loving, fun one on one time with me so when my kids were young they wanted it and got ready for it. I also give “dessert” (could be a fruit) after they are in pjs. Sandwiching non preferred activities between desirable activities often works well. So will sandwich getting into pjs between playing a game and dessert…. After the age of 12 I tell my kids how much sleep their bodies need to be healthy and encourage them to go to bed at a practical time. I do not fight them if they don’t. They eventually learn on their own from being exhausted or they don’t. In a year or two they are in yeshiva and it’s all irrelevant anyhow….

#BestBubby

Fri, Jul 14 2023, 12:19 pm

Oy, modern parenting.

We didn't have defiant children for thousands of years.

These defiant children put everyone's lives in danger by acting up in the car, pushing the car controls!!!

These defiant children will have destroyed lives because they have no self control.

The essence of chinuch is self control.

amother

Seafoam

Fri, Jul 14 2023, 12:33 pm

amother OP wrote:

Then you have to leave him at home with a neighbor

imasinger

Fri, Jul 14 2023, 12:39 pm

Okay, I guess I'm not bowing out completely. For those whose hopes are now dashed, I apologize.

Two things.

1. OP, the two situations you asked about are miles apart. One is about a kid in meltdown doing dangerous things. IMO, you do whatever it takes to get him out, and deal with the fallout later. In that moment, I don't think there's much else to talk about.

Prior to that moment, possibly, as discussed, maybe don't preemptively wash his hair. Maybe make triply sure that he knows that "loss of privileges if you're not in bed by 9:30" means no scooter (or better yet, that you rethink those consequences).

The other, the bedtime, perhaps move the focus completely to immediate rewards and consequences. You say you were already doing things like "if you're washed and out of the bathroom in 10 minutes, I'll look at pictures of saws with you". Or, earlier, ""Ten more minutes till story and cuddle time...5 more minutes... 3 more minutes, hurry, or you'll miss out!". So, the issue may be coming up with a meaningful immediate consequence. Or, maybe there isn't one, and it's not the hill to die on?

But expecting a kid who sometimes doesn't process well to associate his not going to bed with losing his scooter the next day, might not be wise.

Anyone have any ideas?

2. Amother Seafoam, if you'd be willing to PM me, I wanna be your friend!

Last edited by imasinger on Fri, Jul 14 2023, 12:42 pm; edited 1 time in total