How would you react /respond?

amother

Mon, Jul 24 2023, 1:45 pm

If your teen DS came to the Shabbos table with his Shabbos shirt completely open showing his tank top undershirt beneath, with athletic pants how would you react?
1. Would you keep quiet?
2. Would you say “please close your shirt”?
3. Would you give him a mussar shmooze?
4. Would you send him away from the table ?

One of my kids does this. He obviously is pushing boundaries . I’m curious to know whether my approach is wrong or not. I keep quiet and never say anything . Nor does my DH. I don’t think DS appreciates Shabbos or feels like honoring Shabbos, so I feel like saying something would just make him angry and he would opt to leave the table , go to his room and not join us for the Shabbos Seuda at all. How would you approach this if you had this scenario play out? (Please don’t tell me to speak to someone in chinuch. I want to hear from the people here , how they approach such situations) .

mha3484

Mon, Jul 24 2023, 1:48 pm

I have younger kids but kids that are extremely strong willed. Before every potential power struggle I ask myself is this the hill I want to die on today. There are times I say no and times I say yes its worth it but it helps me think it through without overreacting.

For me, a kid coming to the shabbos table is more important then how he is dressed so I would say its not the hill I want to die on. Id rather them come and be with the family then sulk in their room.

Last edited by mha3484 on Mon, Jul 24 2023, 1:50 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Tan

Mon, Jul 24 2023, 1:49 pm

I wouldn't say anything at the moment.

I would try to find a time to talk later. When a kid is putting that in your face, they're telling you that something is wrong, something is bothering them.

B"H he's wearing a Shabbos shirt and coming to the table. But he is obviously hurt about something, and I'd want to know what.

amother

Charcoal

Mon, Jul 24 2023, 1:53 pm

Does he go to shul and change afterwards? Do you think he’s doing it to try to push buttons or genuinely because he wants to be comfortable and has no intent behind it?

In my family, the men come home from shul Shabbos morning and change into comfortable clothes. Usually lululemon black pants and a white tee. I don’t see any issues with it. Shabbos is a day of rest and I see no issues with them wanting to be comfortable while they’re at home with family

Growing up there were a lot of rules about how to dress and behave on shabbos. It started to make it feel forced and made me not enjoy it, even resent it. I dreaded Shabbos each week. So I personally say, what’s the big deal? Let him dress how he dresses and don’t focus on it, like as if that’s what makes Shabbos special. Choose your battles

But first you also need to maybe figure out what his intent is. If it’s to purposely upset you, then you have bigger issues

amother

Mon, Jul 24 2023, 2:02 pm

Thanks for the input. He stopped going to shul in recent months on Shabbos but was still going to Yeshiva every day. He hates Yeshiva and told me that Yeshiva is ruining his life. He specifically can’t stand the Rosh Yeshiva and I validate and told him we will work together to find a Yeshiva that doesn’t have the preaching rhetoric he can’t stand. He also started going to therapy a few months ago , so any mental health issues are being addressed. (I have not spoken to his therapist yet since he feels comfortable going as long as it’s kept between the therapist and him and fully understand that. I just don’t know if any progress at all has been made. But at least he has someone with a listening ear to talk to).
I am very happy he joins the Seuda and I’m grateful for that . I was only curious as to whether the way I was approaching things was too permissive or not. But based on what I read ,we are doing the best under the circumstances, I guess. It makes me sad that he’s so sad and feels so disconnected. Wish I had the magic answer to fix his sadness and anger towards the system and to anyone that hurt him. Even though we talk he feels misunderstood. Even when I validate he still feels unheard. Even if I tell him I’m totally with him and I stick up for him, he doesn’t feel it or see it that way.

amother

Puce

Mon, Jul 24 2023, 2:05 pm

amother OP wrote:

My husband had a similar experience during his time in yeshiva. He disliked and did not respect his rebbe and started doing some melacha on Shabbos. It stopped when he was able to go to a not-frum school instead.

amother

Mon, Jul 24 2023, 2:19 pm

amother Alyssum wrote:

OP, you sound like an absolutley incredible mother dealing with this hard situation. Does he have a teacher, mentor etc that he looks up to in yeshiva or something?

I wish. He always had a mentor type of bachur who was a former Talmud who learned with him daily and shmoozed with him etc . But he left this year to Israel. There is nobody in Yeshiva that he looks up to. Not the Rosh Yeshiva nor the rebbeim. He is entering 12th grade this year. He’s smart and does well in school . He said he goes to Yeshiva for his friends otherwise he would never go.

mommy3b2c

Mon, Jul 24 2023, 2:19 pm

My sixteen year old does this. I don’t care about the sweat pants but I don’t want his shirt opened so I tell him to close it or put on a tee shirt. He’s a very good boy though so it’s not a power struggle. He’s not trying to rebel, just be comfortable. If he was rebellious I might act differently . Every child and every scenario is different so there is no one size fits all answer.

AlwaysGrateful

Mon, Jul 24 2023, 2:24 pm

mommy3b2c wrote:

This. A kid who doesn't realize that it's socially unacceptable? I'd tell him privately but in a way that doesn't make a huge deal about it.

A kid who is trying to be comfortable? I'd think about how many power struggles we'd had recently and how likely he will be to go along with me easily.

A kid who is miserable with the rest of his life and this is all he's doing? I'd thank my lucky stars and try my hardest to help with the rest of his life. This is a symptom. No reason to treat a symptom when there's something bigger going on underneath.

naturalmom5

Mon, Jul 24 2023, 2:48 pm

We need more background . Are you very yeshivish or chasidish.
Growing up was the ruach in your home, conform, conform, conform or was it about enjoying yiddishkeit

My husband and I sit by the table in our pajamas, but we both come from homes where there was no Shabbos at all

Cheiny

Mon, Jul 24 2023, 3:08 pm

amother OP wrote:

I would ask that he at least come to the Shabbos table dressed appropriately to show respect for the seuda. He can wear his comfortable clothes after.

TwinsMommy

Mon, Jul 24 2023, 3:45 pm

My 16 year old son has autism--- he never goes to shul and never dresses for Shabbos seudos---- it's pajamas at the table. I've tried to have gentle conversations about it to no avail. I can't force the issue--- he's bigger and stronger than I am. He doesn't do melacha and he does wash and bentsch for the meal, so...yay.

His sister also has autism and she ALSO doesn't go to shul or dress for Shabbos seudos. The difference is that she usually gets together with a friend or two on Shabbos and for THAT (AFTER the meal) she'll get dressed in appropriate Shabbos clothing. Hooray. Again, she doesn't do melacha, and IF she eats challah (VERY RARELY!) she'll wash and bentsch. Usually it's just al ha michya with the Shabbos insert, said as quickly as possible because chas v'shalom she should eat CHALLAH and have to BENTSCH! lol

Both kids used to go to shul once in a while and then covid hit, shuls closed and when everything reopened, teenage hormones and autism won over shul committment. We're in family therapy. Counting our brachos our kids aren't OTD or on drugs-- just.... obstinate boundary pushers. Smile

amother

Silver

Mon, Jul 24 2023, 4:01 pm

You sound like you’re dealing perfectly. Good for you for doing what is best for him, and not saying anything based on what you’d like to see. I think you’ll see much nachos from him in the future as you are first and foremost making sure he knows you’re on his side.

amother

Blue

Mon, Jul 24 2023, 4:11 pm

amother OP wrote:

Don't give up, you are doing this the right way. He may not show his appreciation now for what you are doing for him but eventually he will. It's hard to stick with it when it seems that all your love goes unnoticed but we are in it for the long haul. Don't give up.