Do you think cleaning help is a luxury? Poll

amother

Starflower

Fri, Jul 28 2023, 5:25 pm

amother Oxfordblue wrote:

What you're saying is, and this is not easy for many to swallow, is that
A CLEAN HOME IS A LUXURY.

(not talking about livable, talking about clean)

Of course some are able to prioritize luxuries and get them economically, like the woman who only eats luxury artisinal sourdough bread, because she makes it herself. (Although we can argue that maybe she should sell her bread and buy cheap white bread for her family instead of using that time for her own luxuries and getting tuition discounts.)

But either you're using a lot of your time that maybe should be going to necessities, or you're spending money for someone else to do it. Either way, you're saying it's a luxury.

I wonder how many agree.

A clean home is not a luxury. Not having to clean yourself when you are capable of cleaning but just prefer not to is a luxury.

amother

Starflower

Fri, Jul 28 2023, 5:48 pm

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

I don't understand.

Having food in the house is a necessity. Hiring a personal shopper is a luxury.

Having food to eat is a necessity.
Hiring a personal cook is a luxury.

Having a livable house is a necessity.
Hiring a cleaner is a luxury.

This exactly. But many people think cleaning is below their dignity and therefore claim it is a necessity for them. That's fine if you can afford it. But if you can't, that's another story.

Hashem_Yaazor

Fri, Jul 28 2023, 5:56 pm

(To be clear, I have no problem with people having luxuries. It definitely improves our lives in serenity, happiness, etc

But let's call a spade a spade. Me paying for Amazon Prime and Walmart Plus to avoid going into a store is a luxury. Maybe a "necessary" luxury to keep my time management under control. But if it was messing up with my budget, I would figure out how to shop.

I also think exercising is a necessity (at whatever level) but a personal trainer is a luxury as is a gym membership.

Outsourcing can be helpful but it's very hard to say that it's a necessity in the vast majority of cases.

What would happen if there was no cleaning help? Did we survive in March 2020 without it?
Maybe it was harder, maybe it was more exhausting, maybe it wasn't perfectly clean, maybe we were edgier.... But we lived. We didn't live without food.)

Hashem_Yaazor

Fri, Jul 28 2023, 6:00 pm

smss wrote:

So then what happens if a person, for whatever reason, can't achieve a livable level of cleanliness without help?

Just like someone who can't drive and has no store close by to walk to, or someone disabled who can't cook.... Then it becomes a higher priority.

But sometimes a little willpower (believe me, I barely have any so I can relate!) and/or training is all that's needed. People choose not to. And that's fine.... When one can afford it!

Mommyg8

Fri, Jul 28 2023, 6:23 pm

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

I used to think like this.

But as I've gotten older and wiser, I started realizing something.

We outsource quite a bit of things in our lives. Nobody I know sews their own clothes (unless it's a hobby), shechts their own chickens, or grinds their own flour. Then there are the things that SOME can do, and many outsource even though they can technically do it themselves - such as painting the walls, home repairs such as plumbing, planting all their own vegetables, challah from the bakery, tutoring for your kids... the list goes on.

I used to paint the walls myself. My husband used to try to fix the plumbing himself. At some point, though, we both realized that it worked out better for us to hire someone to do it.

The same with cleaning. Some people can do it themselves, and they should. And some people realize - and it doesn't have to be that there is an emotional or executive function issue per se - that they are better off outsourcing a part of their cleaning. Maybe they can work more hours and they make more than the cleaning lady, so it pays. Maybe they're not particularly good at it (like some people are not good at fixing the plumbing themselves). Maybe they are pregnant/postpartum and it's too hard. Maybe they need that emotional energy to deal with difficult kids.

Whatever the reason, outsourcing a task that can be done better and cheaper than you can do it yourself is not considered a luxury in my first world neck of the woods.

Hashem_Yaazor

Fri, Jul 28 2023, 6:28 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

It still doesn't make it a necessity.
It makes it convenient, just like my example of having someone else do the shopping.
Maybe my time is worth more so I pay less than I make an hour for someone to run an errand. That's great when I can afford it. But it didn't turn it into a societal necessity.

For some reason, cleaning help is viewed as a must except for those either extremely geshikt people who have it all together or the nebachs who can't afford it. Newlyweds are getting regular cleaning help because that's the norm and what they grew up with. It's really not such a big deal to clean up a small apartment after 2 adults when we're talking about 2 regular able bodied humans inhabiting said home.

Hashem_Yaazor

Fri, Jul 28 2023, 6:30 pm

When I worked 9-5 with 3 kids I had my cleaning schedule down to a science. We had 1 bathroom. It would get cleaned by me while I was watching my kids take a bath. They went to sleep in the evening at which point I could clean the kitchen and do the dishes.

One big help: I didn't have internet and I didn't even have a cell phone. No surprise I had more time to take care of the house.

momtra

Fri, Jul 28 2023, 6:39 pm

I think It’s a “soft”luxury for lack of a better term. Meaning, I feel like having a car is also a luxury.
I had cleaning help until my kids needed more tutoring ( also in a way a luxury). At that point, I made a decision that there is just not enough money for cleaning help ( and I work 35 hours a week).
My kids are big, so there’s not a constant mess, they all help out, and there are days when things are messier than others. It is what it is.
But I don’t feel that im underprivileged for not having cleaning help. I feel fortunate to be able to give my kids the academic support that they need.

Mommyg8

Fri, Jul 28 2023, 6:56 pm

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

Well, then, what is the definition of a necessity? A plumber? A painter? A tutor? None of these are necessities, we can do that ourselves. Yet most people would not consider those things a luxury. I wonder why?

True that cleaning help for normal newlyweds is a real luxury. When I was a newlywed, it was even beyond a luxury - I couldn't imagine hiring someone to do something that I could easily do myself. (And I painted the walls myself, but that's a different conversation).

But I do think, that at some point, for many frum families, it does become a necessity. In the same category as hiring a painter, plumber, or tutor.

We have large families, b'h and even if the mother is not working outside the home (which is rare), she is generally quite busy with raising her family.

I don't agree that everyone could do it themselves if they simply wanted to. I think that unless you are super duper geshikt, it's almost impossible to do it all yourself at some point (and even those people do have their tipping point.)

Mommyg8

Fri, Jul 28 2023, 6:58 pm

momtra wrote:

A car CAN be a luxury if you live in a place with easy access to public transportation and corner groceries. Not so much if you live far out and have no access to anything without it (and no sidewalks, like where I live).

For me, a tutor would be a luxury (I can tutor myself). A painter would be a luxury (I can paint myself). So it's all very relative.

Hashem_Yaazor

Fri, Jul 28 2023, 7:13 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

I don't consider hiring a plumber in an emergency a luxury.
I do consider it a luxury to add a bathroom and need a plumber.

I do consider a painter a luxury, it's nice to spruce up a house but not a necessity.

A tutor is dependent on child's needs. A tutor for a struggling child is important just like a doctor or therapist would be. A tutor being used like a private teacher because you want to supplement education is a luxury.

Again it's ok to shuffle priorities and outsource. I'm not against that at all. It's just necessary (and not a luxury 😉 ) to keep in mind that it's an extra, and if budgeting doesn't allow for it, see it as a possible extra to cut as it's not in most cases an actual need.

Mommyg8

Fri, Jul 28 2023, 7:14 pm

amother Tanzanite wrote:

A plumber has specialized knowledge and know how. It's also very easy for a nontrained DIY person to make a big error while attempting to do a repair that ends up being a much more costly fix then if a trained person had dealt with it in the first place. This does not apply to cleaning help.

That was just one example, but yes, I have very talented people in my family who can do it themselves. They outsource it anyway.

What about sewing? Anyone can learn to sew their own clothes. Do you buy flaky dough? You can make it yourself. You can grow your own vegetables. There are a million places that you can do it yourself and not outsource it.... and generally, people I know don't.

And I actually do think that being able to keep your house clean, while working 30 hours a week (as an example, that's not my reality), while taking care of your children, cooking, shopping and everything else is definitely a specialized skill that not everyone has.

Hashem_Yaazor

Fri, Jul 28 2023, 7:16 pm

Mommyg8 wrote:

Remember there's a spectrum of clean. Right now, all my dishes are washed and I cleaned out my sink. My floors are clean.
But I didn't dust bookshelves or clean baseboards.
And it's fine.
I also have some clutter and we'll live with it.