How much phonics are your kids schools teaching

amother

Wed, Sep 27 2023, 4:49 pm

Been going down this rabbit hole of science of reading vs balanced literacy, reading wars and the need for phonics and completely blown away by how many schools today are barely teaching phonics.

I live in NYS and never heard of such a thing. Is it the Frum community that is so advanced or is it a NY thing?

Wanted to hear from other mothers in the States, what are your kids learning? Do they go through a whole phonics program or do they just learn the letters? This really blows the whole Frum kids are uneducated thing.

amother

Cappuccino

Wed, Sep 27 2023, 5:59 pm

It's mostly New York schools that were focusing on whole language/balanced literacy and neglecting phonics....read up on Lucy Calkins. She was based out of Columbia in NYC and many districts in NY bought her program. I will say the media spin on her is superficial and not quite accurate. Balanced literacy wasn't about no phonics, it actually was a way to bring some back in after the emphasis on whole language in the 80s and early 90s.

Anyway, I have been working in a public school going back quite a number of years (in a different state) and phonics was always taught in primary grades, both in general ed classes (Open Court program, mostly, the newest edition was purchased around 5 years ago) and other intervention programs by the specialist. We actually had the writing program by Lucy Calkins but only used it for a year or two, then abandoned it.

amother

Wed, Sep 27 2023, 7:30 pm

amother Cappuccino wrote:

Very interesting. Thank you! What about Mississippi? Seems like there's a big overhaul there now. Also many professors who don't want to even touch Science of Reading Material. I just can't believe that there are schools today and ppl in education that can actually be against structured teaching of phonics!

Also, of course anybody that teaches special ed or remedial reading teaches phonics, doesn't mean that it's going on in the regular ed classrooms.

amother

Wed, Sep 27 2023, 7:38 pm

amother Clover wrote:

I don't understand how school could be not be teaching phonics.... even if they don't call it that. My kids schools don't call it phonics, but they teach it in preschool and kindergarten.

They should be teaching it through second or third grade too.

And yes, it seems like the theory is that kids pick up reading by being surrounded by reading and to just help them out and teach as little phonics as possible.

I have to say that when I was teaching my child to read I ditched phonics because it can be boring and my child was able to learn to read by immersion but he hit problem areas and I went through the read right books with him to catch him up on the basics. Do I totally get the thinking and you want kids to love to read but I can't see how most kids can learn to read without it.

amother

Cappuccino

Wed, Sep 27 2023, 7:58 pm

amother OP wrote:

General education means, regular classroom. Yes, I can say I taught phonics going back 20 years, my entire career-- whenever I taught primary grades, phonics was part of the curriculum....an official program, not just worksheets or a workbook. I'd say most public school students have gotten at least a foundation of phonics, at least starting late 90s.

I'm not familiar enough to know about the specifics of Mississippi except that it's one of the poorest states with lowest performing students. (Poverty is the #1 indicator of poorly performing students.) From the bits and pieces of articles I've read over the years, I think it is likely they have tried many new programs and probably abandoned them quickly to try something new, because politicians want to see instant results.

I've read a lot of the recent coverage and, as usual, the media is overblown and sensationalized. The debate going on now is nothing on the phonics vs whole language fight of 30 years ago. Most higher ups in education are fine with science of reading. It just takes awhile for things to trickle down, the newest programs to be purchased, and teachers given training. Educational trends are a pendulum that swing back and forth probably every 20-25 years...so it is moving back to direct instruction, whole group teaching etc and away from small group differentiated learning. Phonics is just one piece of that.

amother

Wed, Sep 27 2023, 8:03 pm

amother Cappuccino wrote:

If you're interested, tell me what you make of this? It sounds like more than what you're making it. But you definitely have a lot more experience in the field than me.

Also, what do you mean by primary grades? Up to first? Up to fourth?

https://www.apmreports.org/epi.....-read

amother

Cappuccino

Wed, Sep 27 2023, 8:08 pm

amother OP wrote:

Overblown and actually could be substituted almost exactly for journal articles I read in grad school about how pure phonics is bad, and balanced literacy is the perfect blend of whole language and phonics. Just substitute some of the words and exchange a few of the studies lol.
Don't forget, the standardized testing done now is completely different from 10 years ago even. Way more rigorous and complex so lower scores don't necessarily mean the kids are actually lower than a decade ago. Nobody ever thinks to compare the method of testing the students' skills and see how tests have evolved and upped the ante.
Primary grades means k-2 and sometimes 3rd.

amother

Wed, Sep 27 2023, 8:11 pm

amother Cappuccino wrote:

Thank you!

amother

Cappuccino

Wed, Sep 27 2023, 8:42 pm

amother OP wrote:

Thank you!

Can I ask if this is research for an article in a frum publication? I'm rereading your op and responses and I'm getting that vibe....
(If so, that's one of my pet peeves...that's no way to research and using anonymous sources and quoting them as if they'd been interviewed is hardly journalistic integrity. Ive seen innocuous seeming posts on frum SM before and then, whattayaknow....sometime later an article that seems strangely familiar but I can't take seriously because I know it wasn't researched properly.....) I'm not accusing you of anything, but kinda getting that vibe. If so, please be honest about it....if not, just disregard this post.

amother

Wed, Sep 27 2023, 8:44 pm

amother Dodgerblue wrote:

Ontario. Surprised to still see phonics worksheets in grade 3. (Kids in class are reading novels). I think its more about spelling.

I do think that when we were kids spelling was not taught with phonics and instead we just memorized. I think it's helpful to pair them together. I think phonics can probably be taught through 3rd or 4th grade easily.

Take a word like transportation. There are so many parts. Or a word like biology. Prefixes, suffixes...

amother

Wed, Sep 27 2023, 8:49 pm

amother Cappuccino wrote:

Nice try. I have never written an article and you can't really get data like this. I would call ppl up and ask if anything... It's just something I got into. I have taught some kids to read so it interests me. It really surprises me to hear that there are teachers that have a degree in education and actually were never taught how to teach reading properly and that there are schools that have minimal phonics instruction. I always knew that there's a high level of illiteracy in public schools. It's interesting to me that our Frum schools have being pushing out much more literate kids and I wonder if maybe it's because our schools have not abandoned phonics. But maybe it's totally something else of course. We were always the ppl of the book.

P.s. I got into it from a post here on Imamother about Science of Reading. I never heard this tell since a few weeks ago.