What do you do when your host breaks halacha?

amother

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 4:36 am

Especially in kashrus?

amother

Blueberry

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 4:40 am

Depends what and how severe it is. I’d probably gently point it out. And possibly stop eating and figure out food later.

Elfrida

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 4:42 am

Check the details of the halacha.

There are a lot of areas in kashrut where we follow best practice, but there are less stringent opinions that are valid, even if we don't normally follow them.

One Rav I knew said that when people seriously learn hilchot Shabbos, they discover everything that that they thought was OK, which actually is not. When they kearn hilchot hashrut in depth, they discover everything that they thought was forbidden, that is actually fine.

amother

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 4:59 am

amother Blueberry wrote:

Depends what and how severe it is. I’d probably gently point it out. And possibly stop eating and figure out food later.

Making cheese sandwiches in the fleishig oven.
Open uncovered.
Also having the 4 year old turn on and off the lights on shabos.
Walking around with hair uncovered in front of dh.

amother

Honeydew

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 5:04 am

I wouldn't say anything and not got back there again.

SuperWify

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 5:04 am

How would you know she didn’t kasher her oven?

amother

Stone

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 5:05 am

amother OP wrote:

Making cheese sandwiches in the fleishig oven.
Open uncovered.
Also having the 4 year old turn on and off the lights on shabos.
Walking around with hair uncovered in front of dh.

There's definitely a basis for not having seperate meat and dairy ovens.
Kids turning lights on and off doesn't effect the status of the home for everyone else. More of a chinuch issue than a shabbos issue
There's a basis for not covering hair in your own home no matter who's there.

There's more halacha than the black and white you were taught. Don't change what you hold, but be aware there are other opinions

amother

Canary

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 5:21 am

amother Stone wrote:

I would make a comment like "I didn't realize that you could make cheese sandwiches in a meat oven?" and let her reply, it's really possible she has a heter..who knows.. but I wouldn't go back there

I once had that where teenagers were doing a certain activity in Shul on Yom Tov. I casually said I didn't know that you could do this on YT, and the teenagers told me they asked a BIG Posek and he said it was permissible.

amother

Coffee

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 5:25 am

Not cheese sandwiches uncovered in a fleishig oven.
If you have any relationship with them prior I would mention something about the oven. She needs to cover her hair in front of other men.The 4ys old turning on lights is not against halacha for his age but we usually stop them for chinuch reasons . But I would also not stay there again.
.

notshanarishona

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 5:29 am

My 4 year does muktzah regardless of how many times I tell him not too so I just ignore. I wouldn’t say anything about that. Kashrus I wouldn’t eat there again if I didn’t trust.

shabbatiscoming

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 5:40 am

amother OP wrote:

Making cheese sandwiches in the fleishig oven.
Open uncovered.
Also having the 4 year old turn on and off the lights on shabos.
Walking around with hair uncovered in front of dh.

There is a perfectly 100% halachic basis for not covering one's hair in your own home, even in front of other men. So that obe is not against halacha. Maybe not how you hold, but 100% halachically fine.

BatZion

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 5:42 am

amother Coffee wrote:

Actually, you should know that there are poskim that say that a woman doesn't need to cover her hair at home, even in the presence of people who are not family members.

Reality

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 5:48 am

When was the last time the oven was used for uncovered fleishigs?

How clean is the oven?

There are many factors involved.

Again, if it makes you uncomfortable, don't go back or possibly make up an excuse to leave early.

But it could be their Rav said it's ok.

Bnei Berak 10

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 6:00 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Could you elaborate a bit more please. My common sense says it makes no difference if you are at home or outside.

amother

Cyan

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 6:03 am

I think the worst thing is to say something. Just don’t go back if you don’t feel comfortable in the future.
My mother questions every one of us about everything in our kitchen and it’s very hurtful , especially after working hard to make things special for her dietary restrictions etc. She started it with my more MO sibling and now does it to me and to her daughter’s in law. If she is so careful about kashrus she she eat at home and stop going places.

BatZion

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 6:13 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Could you elaborate a bit more please. My common sense says it makes no difference if you are at home or outside.

1. Do those who maintain that women may go bareheaded in the courtyard or home apply that ruling even in the presence of people from outside the household?

Maharit indicates that they do:

שו”ת מהרי”ט א: עו וכתבו בתוספות דבחצר אפילו בלא קלתה נמי אין בה משום פריעת הראש והוא הדין דאפילו דת יהודית נמי אין בה … דחצר שהרבים בוקעים בו הוא שרבים מבני המדינה שאינם דרים בחצר הם צריכים לבקוע בו כגון שיש שם חנויות שבגללן נכנסים ויוצאים אבל כל שאין בוקעים בו אלא בני החצר בלבד אף על פי שהם מרובים ושאר כל אדם אין באים שם אלא לצורך כשיש להם עסק עם בני החצר לא מקרי רבים בוקעים בו…
Maharit I:76
The Tosafot wrote that in a courtyard, even without a kalata, there is no issue of uncovering the head and similarly there is also no issue of dat Yehudit …For a courtyard that the public crosses [treated like an alleyway, with a requirement of minimal head-covering] is one where many of the people of the town who do not live in the courtyard need to cross, as when there are stores there for which they come in and out. But wherever the only people who cross it are the denizens of the courtyard, even if they are many, and other people only come in as necessary when they have dealings with the residents of the courtyard, it is not called a courtyard that the public crosses…
Maharit explains that the obligation of head-covering does not apply in a woman’s courtyard , even if her neighbors or occasional visitors are there, unless it is really a public thoroughfare.

2. Today, some women wear head-covering outside of the home, but uncover at home, even in front of male guests. Rav Ovadya Yosef reportedly defended this practice in an oral question and answer.

הרב עובדיה יוסף, מצוטט במעין אומר יא אבן העזר טו תשובה: מרן כתב בשו”ע שמותרת ללכת כך בתוך ביתה. –ואמרתי ששאלתי האם הפשט אפילו לפני אנשים אחרים? וענה מו”ר נו”ר: מרן כתב שמותר, וזהו.
Rav Ovadya Yosef, Quoted in Ma'ayan Omer 11 EH 15
Answer: Maran [Rav Yosef Karo] wrote in Shulchan Aruch that she is permitted to go thus [bareheaded] within her home. Question: I said that I asked if the simple meaning is even in front of other [not household member] men?
Our Master [Rav Ovadya] answered: Maran [Rav Yosef Karo] wrote that it is permitted, and that’s it.

https://www.deracheha.org/head.....here/

You can go through that page and see that although it may not be common practice, women who do not cover at home *do* have what to "lean on" halachically...

amother

Seafoam

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 6:17 am

Bnei Berak 10 wrote:

Could you elaborate a bit more please. My common sense says it makes no difference if you are at home or outside.

I’ll give you just one example. I asked my rav the following question: (worded exactly like this) if I have a headache or migraine and it hurts to put something on my head, am I allowed to uncover my hair in my house, even though I have unrelated guys living with us, who come and go at all hours?
His response was: that’s fine
Now, obviously from the outside you will know if I have a migraine, but you won’t always know if I have a headache. And the only person I shared this speak with was my husband. So if you come to my house, you might at any given time see me walking around with my head uncovered, or minimally covered. You might think I’m doing something wrong, but I’m not.

I know that’s not what Shabbat was talking about. She was talking about those who never cover in their own house. I have heard of this as well, I can look later to see if I can find sources.

My point was don’t assume that someone is doing something wrong.

Golde

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 6:18 am

In all three examples you mention, there is room within Halacha that could make it permissible.

If she did something like turn on the oven on Shabbos to make those cheese sandwiches, I probably wouldn't eat there. It's difficult though. What did you do, OP?

amother

NeonPurple

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 6:18 am

Forget the host, and what she is comfortable with, what about ops husband?

Is it ok for him to be around women with uncovered hair?

DrMom

Mon, Oct 02 2023, 6:21 am

The uncoveted cheese sandwich in a fleishig oven is the only one that would concern me. There are halachic opinions that support the other 2 practices.

Also the kashrut issue is the only one that directly impacts me.