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watergirl
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 Thu, Oct 05 2023, 10:27 am
| amother OP wrote: | Absolutely. I feel very intimidated when I’m around people who are wearing beautiful wigs. But I do look beautiful if I may say so myself 
More than the look that bothers me is the feeling of my head being wrapped around, I don’t know I need hair.
It’s considered a very big deal in my community to switch headgears. I don’t like to be the talk of town and also I do look good so I never really think of changing to a wig. I do think that when the time will come for my kids to get married I want them to have the choice of covering their hair in whatever way they want |
Since this is AMA - and I am asking nicely and respectfully, but I say this a lot here and I really would love an answer - why is it ok to say LH about a women who changes her head covering? There is zero halacha to wear a shpitzel, but there are many halachos about lashon hara. Why is LH accepted to the degree that it's used as a tactic to prevent change?
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amother
Oak
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Thu, Oct 05 2023, 10:31 am
| watergirl wrote: | | Since this is AMA - and I am asking nicely and respectfully, but I say this a lot here and I really would love an answer - why is it ok to say LH about a women who changes her head covering? There is zero halacha to wear a shpitzel, but there are many halachos about lashon hara. Why is LH accepted to the degree that it's used as a tactic to prevent change? |
Not op but I understand it. In a perfect world, you’re right. But when someone does something shocking the automatic thing that happens is that people talk. Since not everyone is perfect in shemiras halashon and it’s a huge nisayon that most people are not perfect in. So automatically by doing something shocking you can expect it should result in LH. Changing a headgear is shocking in certain communities. Definitely fodder for gossip.
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amother
OP
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Thu, Oct 05 2023, 10:39 am
| amother Holly wrote: | I give you a lot of credit for wearing a shpitzel. Even if the reason is because you need to fit in the family/community you live in. I'm from the same situation but insisted on different headgear when I got married. It was definitely a big deal inthe family/ community when I did it.. I respect everyone that can do it.I couldn't and definitely had repercussions. But don't regret because it was not for me.
I do have a pet peeve. No, not everyone that wears a shpitzel looks regal and beautiful and eidel. Many look not pretty, slovenly, nebby. Some look neat. Some look bad. Majority don't look good in shpitzel. Al least, let's give these amazing women credit for wearing a shpitzel because the family/community requires it. Don't belittle their mesiras nefesh. Most do not look their best but sacrifice their looks because this is what's demanded from them. It's real mesiras nefesh. They deserve all the credit.
The minority that look beautiful and regal just got lucky. They deserve credit too but it's a but easier when you look good |
I agree most women do not look good although I do think they all have potential to look good.
I know in my family we all look great even those who aren’t pretty. I can’t just not wear makeup if I’m not in the mood, I have to work a little harder and make sure I always look put together and neat, and I do look good.
I miss the no makeup days! Before I got married I loved not wearing makeup, I have a beautiful, natural tanned complexion and had a certain pleasure to not wear makeup. Can’t do that anymore
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amother
Wandflower
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Thu, Oct 05 2023, 10:43 am
Do you get treated less then when you shop in stores?
My husband's chavrusa's wife wears one. He claims that they all get treated rudely. I'm from satmar but none of my friends wear shpitzlach, so I don't have whom to ask irl.
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amother
OP
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Thu, Oct 05 2023, 10:45 am
| watergirl wrote: | | Since this is AMA - and I am asking nicely and respectfully, but I say this a lot here and I really would love an answer - why is it ok to say LH about a women who changes her head covering? There is zero halacha to wear a shpitzel, but there are many halachos about lashon hara. Why is LH accepted to the degree that it's used as a tactic to prevent change? |
If it’s not Halacha and there’s nothing wrong with what they did, then why is it even considered LH? Maybe I’m wrong but is it wrong to talk about someone about something they did if it’s not a bad thing? I would think it’s ok. And btw when I talk about it it’s usually the opposite we would talk how courageous the person is etc
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amother
OP
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Thu, Oct 05 2023, 10:48 am
| amother Wandflower wrote: | Do you get treated less then when you shop in stores?
My husband's chavrusa's wife wears one. He claims that they all get treated rudely. I'm from satmar but none of my friends wear shpitzlach, so I don't have whom to ask irl. |
Not at all, never experienced that. Is she talking about Jewish stores or non Jewish ones?
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watergirl
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Thu, Oct 05 2023, 10:57 am
| amother OP wrote: | | If it’s not Halacha and there’s nothing wrong with what they did, then why is it even considered LH? Maybe I’m wrong but is it wrong to talk about someone about something they did if it’s not a bad thing? I would think it’s ok. And btw when I talk about it it’s usually the opposite we would talk how courageous the person is etc |
This is the issue here actually. Do you not have hilchos lashon hara as part of your school curriculum?
If someone is gossiping, it's LH.
There is nothing wrong with changing your head covering. But here you are describing people gossiping about it - that is LH plain and simple.
Even talking about how courageous the person is LH per the Chofetz Chaim. You could be making the person you are talking to feel badly, which is also LH.
I very highly recommend learning Hilchos Shmiras HaLashon. It's extremely important.
| amother Oak wrote: | | Not op but I understand it. In a perfect world, you’re right. But when someone does something shocking the automatic thing that happens is that people talk. Since not everyone is perfect in shemiras halashon and it’s a huge nisayon that most people are not perfect in. So automatically by doing something shocking you can expect it should result in LH. Changing a headgear is shocking in certain communities. Definitely fodder for gossip. |
It should not be automatic that people talk. And no one is expecting perfection. Trying to refrain from LH is imperfect, but at least it's an attempt. People are saying it's automatic - which means it's condoned. Especially if it's being used as a fear tactic so people don't change.
OP herself said in one of her first posts - she does not want to be the talk of the town - that in and of itself shows you it's LH and she does not want to be talked about.
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amother
OP
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Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:16 am
| watergirl wrote: | It should not be automatic that people talk. And no one is expecting perfection. Trying to refrain from LH is imperfect, but at least it's an attempt. People are saying it's automatic - which means it's condoned. Especially if it's being used as a fear tactic so people don't change.
OP herself said in one of her first posts - she does not want to be the talk of the town - that in and of itself shows you it's LH and she does not want to be talked about. |
Since you seem very educated in hilchos lashan hara, I am wondering what your take is on the wigs people wear today. Do you think it’s completely ok halachically? They barely seem like wigs and they look way more glamorous and flattering than natural hair. I know a shpitzel isn’t halacha, but I think it’s more halachidig than those wigs.
And btw in regards to talking about people, do you never talk about people about things they do? Also I didn’t mean literally the talk of town, but rather I don’t like to be different. It’s not the norm to change so I wouldn’t.
I’m not trying to say I’m better than anyone else but I didn’t really understand why you needed to make this point when you could literally say it on any thread. Lashan hara is not allowed. Go to all threads and start commenting.
Btw, I never just gossip, I’m the nerd who stops all juicy LH conversations.
And when someone will say so and so changed headgear, I’d be like wow she has courage and next.
You can start a thread that lashan hara isn’t allowed.
Literally anything can bring to lashan hara, any topic you see on the threads
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watergirl
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Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:27 am
| amother OP wrote: | Since you seem very educated in hilchos lashan hara, I am wondering what your take is on the wigs people wear today. Do you think it’s completely ok halachically? They barely seem like wigs and they look way more glamorous and flattering than natural hair. I know a shpitzel isn’t halacha, but I think it’s more halachidig than those wigs.
And btw in regards to talking about people, do you never talk about people about things they do? Also I didn’t mean literally the talk of town, but rather I don’t like to be different. It’s not the norm to change so I wouldn’t.
I’m not trying to say I’m better than anyone else but I didn’t really understand why you needed to make this point when you could literally say it on any thread. Lashan hara is not allowed. Go to all threads and start commenting.
Btw, I never just gossip, I’m the nerd who stops all juicy LH conversations.
And when someone will say so and so changed headgear, I’d be like wow she has courage and next.
You can start a thread that lashan hara isn’t allowed.
Literally anything can bring to lashan hara, any topic you see on the threads |
Why are you linking wigs to lashon hara? Are you implying that if I thought someone was covering her hair in a manner in which was not halachically acceptable, it would be ok for me to discuss her? So if I thought wigs were not ok and someone wore one, I believe it would be ok for me to say LH about her? Or if she covered her hair in a way that I think is not ok, then it's ok for me to say LH about her? I'm not sure what your link is here.
Again, like I said in my first comment here, you said it was AMA, so seeing as I read you say that you don't want to be the talk of the town, and you only said now that you didn't mean it literally, and given that others have made the same statement before, I decided to ask about this thing that is seemingly a part of the culture wherever it is that you live.
And for what it's worth, I have gone onto other threads where people openly say that people will talk about them if they do XYZ thing, and I ask why that's condoned.
Re: talk of the town - if you did not mean it literally, I would not have responded with my question about LH. Although one other person did chime in and say it's automatic for people to talk.
You wrote your first posts in a way that made it seem that being talked about is one of the reasons you don't change your head covering. You said:
| amother OP wrote: |
It’s considered a very big deal in my community to switch headgears. I don’t like to be the talk of town and also I do look good so I never really think of changing to a wig. |
I've also seen on many hair covering threads people express the same fear, so it's clearly a thing. And that is what I was asking about.
I am intentionally avoiding your questions on my thoughts about wigs being halachic aside from saying this - where I live and where I have ALWAYS lived, it's never been a conformist community. If someone goes from covering her hair to stopping, no - she is not talked about. I've very literally never heard it.
Discussing the THING is not the same as discussing the PERSON.
Having a conversation about halachic methods of hair covering is not LH. Having a conversation about Sara, who wore only X but now she wears Y IS LH.
As a major side, and only saying this because you are now discussing which you believe to be more halachic (wigs vs. shpitzel), I want to say this - hair covering is very hard for many and each person should do it however she believes is best.
I also believe refraining from LH is very hard and people should do the best they can to refrain.
Once someone says it's a given that people are going to gossip, it's pretty clear that refraining is not even a thought if it's condoned for a specific topic.
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amother
OP
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Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:42 am
| watergirl wrote: | I've also seen on many hair covering threads people express the same fear, so it's clearly a thing. And that is what I was asking about.
I am intentionally avoiding your questions on my thoughts about wigs being halachic aside from saying this - where I live and where I have ALWAYS lived, it's never been a conformist community. If someone goes from covering her hair to stopping, no - she is not talked about. I've very literally never heard it.
Discussing the THING is not the same as discussing the PERSON.
Having a conversation about halachic methods of hair covering is not LH. Having a conversation about Sara, who wore only X but now she wears Y IS LH.
As a major side, and only saying this because you are now discussing which you believe to be more halachic (wigs vs. shpitzel), I want to say this - hair covering is very hard for many and each person should do it however she believes is best.
I also believe refraining from LH is very hard and people should do the best they can to refrain.
Once someone says it's a given that people are going to gossip, it's pretty clear that refraining is not even a thought if it's condoned for a specific topic. |
The reason I’m linking wigs to lashan hara is the same reason you’re linking changing headgears to lashan hara
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amother
OP
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Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:47 am
| watergirl wrote: | I've also seen on many hair covering threads people express the same fear, so it's clearly a thing. And that is what I was asking about.
I am intentionally avoiding your questions on my thoughts about wigs being halachic aside from saying this - where I live and where I have ALWAYS lived, it's never been a conformist community. If someone goes from covering her hair to stopping, no - she is not talked about. I've very literally never heard it.
Discussing the THING is not the same as discussing the PERSON.
Having a conversation about halachic methods of hair covering is not LH. Having a conversation about Sara, who wore only X but now she wears Y IS LH.
As a major side, and only saying this because you are now discussing which you believe to be more halachic (wigs vs. shpitzel), I want to say this - hair covering is very hard for many and each person should do it however she believes is best.
I also believe refraining from LH is very hard and people should do the best they can to refrain.
Once someone says it's a given that people are going to gossip, it's pretty clear that refraining is not even a thought if it's condoned for a specific topic. |
Changing headgears in my community is considered a very big deal. You’re lucky that in your circles it’s normal and nobody cares if you stop covering your hair. Where I live it’s just not done, and NOT out of fear that people will talk about you. It’s just not done. I’m sure there are things in your community that is not the norm to do. Nothing and absolutely nothing about fear of being talked about. I don’t like to do something that’s not considered the norm. Just like that. I didn’t literally mean it when I said talk of town. I meant being different.
So mentioning lashan hara wasn’t very on point
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watergirl
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Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:53 am
| amother OP wrote: | | The reason I’m linking wigs to lashan hara is the same reason you’re linking changing headgears to lashan hara |
No, I’m like changing head coverings to LH because you said very clearly, that is a consequence of changing. Later you walked it back and said it’s not what you really meant.
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watergirl
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Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:57 am
| amother OP wrote: | Changing headgears in my community is considered a very big deal. You’re lucky that in your circles it’s normal and nobody cares if you stop covering your hair. Where I live it’s just not done, and NOT out of fear that people will talk about you. It’s just not done. I’m sure there are things in your community that is not the norm to do. Nothing and absolutely nothing about fear of being talked about. I don’t like to do something that’s not considered the norm. Just like that. I didn’t literally mean it when I said talk of town. I meant being different.
So mentioning lashan hara wasn’t very on point |
So again, I took you literally which is why I asked my question. Pretty sure that when people make statements like that, most people will take it literally. I’m glad that’s not how you meant it. Enjoy the rest of succos!
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amother
OP
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Thu, Oct 05 2023, 12:23 pm
| watergirl wrote: | | So again, I took you literally which is why I asked my question. Pretty sure that when people make statements like that, most people will take it literally. I’m glad that’s not how you meant it. Enjoy the rest of succos! |
You are right. I didn’t realize that people take it so literally. That’s not what I meant.
Thanks, you too!
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amother
Hyacinth
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Thu, Oct 05 2023, 1:25 pm
If this is too intrusive don’t answer. You say it’s easy for you to wear a shpitzel because you are naturally pretty. Do you worry about getting old and not as beautiful and it will be hard for you?
Asking because I am in a similar situation
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amother
Slategray
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Thu, Oct 05 2023, 8:29 pm
Do you wear anything on ur head to sleep if u shaved ur head?
Do u leave your head bald when ur intimate with ur husband?
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amother
Mauve
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Thu, Oct 05 2023, 8:39 pm
Why are you on the internet?
Do you feel that your husband is happy with the way you look?
I once saw a couple on the street, the wife wore a shpitzl. I noticed her husband staring at women wearing wigs. Do you feel that's common?
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amother
OP
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Thu, Oct 05 2023, 8:50 pm
| amother Hyacinth wrote: | If this is too intrusive don’t answer. You say it’s easy for you to wear a shpitzel because you are naturally pretty. Do you worry about getting old and not as beautiful and it will be hard for you?
Asking because I am in a similar situation |
Great question! I recently discussed this with my sister lol. She then reminded me that my 70 year old grandmother looks younger than many women her age. Btw I do think you look younger with a shpitzel. Wigs make you look older, especially the long wigs. My mom is around 50 and looks like she’s my older sister.
I know what u mean though, I will worry then.
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amother
OP
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Thu, Oct 05 2023, 8:53 pm
| amother Mauve wrote: | Why are you on the internet?
Do you feel that your husband is happy with the way you look?
I once saw a couple on the street, the wife wore a shpitzl. I noticed her husband staring at women wearing wigs. Do you feel that's common? |
Why are you on the internet?
And btw I once saw a couple the wife was wearing a long beautiful wig and her husband was staring at me
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amother
OP
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Thu, Oct 05 2023, 8:57 pm
| amother Slategray wrote: | Do you wear anything on ur head to sleep if u shaved ur head?
Do u leave your head bald when ur intimate with ur husband? |
I’m never bald. Only the day after I shave which is probably once in every few months. My hair grows super fast! And it’s very very thick. I have like a boy cut almost. I actually think I look cute in it .
I wear a snoods or pre-tied head scarves at home, I usually wear them even when I’m intimate.
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