Big sister bullying the other -WWYD

amother

Thu, Nov 09 2023, 8:40 am

This is the situation:
My 11 year old daughter is bullying her younger 6 year old sister. 6 year old is on the spectrum and has severe inattentive ADHD that can be really frustrating. Older sister is embarrassed by her and is constantly berating her, calling her weird, being mean to her, begging her to be normal and not embarrass her in the bus and in school.
Older sister is in therapy and has been in therapy on and off for years. She has anxiety and her younger sister is a huge trigger for her. She has been taught skills a million times and can teach others the same skills but she is not applying any of them and she is acting just pure mean. I know all the psychobabble around her behavior, bottom line is it's not ok.
I don't know what to do. We've had conversations over and over and over again. Nothing is helping. What kind of consequence is appropriate?
I am at a total loss here. Is my child just a mean bully? How do I protect my other daughter from her older sister? These aren't 3 year old that's I can live to 2 different spaces. They have separate rooms, they never play together, they don't share friends. Actually the 6 year old hardly has any friends (another thing her older sister bullies her for).
I am at a total loss. Nothing I've tried is helping.
Help!!!!!
If you tell me to speak to a professional, give me a name of someone you know who can help with this, until now I've gotten no where. Im thinking maybe someone here has something I haven't tried yet.

amother

Firethorn

Thu, Nov 09 2023, 8:56 am

You are doing everything you can empower the weaker one to not see herself as a victim

You sound like a real caring Mommy

It's such a hard balance of not getting overly involved yet stepping in as Authority in the picture

I have one very complicated child that really believes the rest of the kids it's horrible because the belly is just as messed up and pained as a children that she is bullying and I hate encouraging them to give in because it's only feeding her complicated nature and teaching them to give in to tough people

amother

Charcoal

Thu, Nov 09 2023, 8:57 am

Thats hard.
Just a couple of questions to think about (based on my experiences)
Do you give her attention?
Does she find school easy? - Maybe her school frustrations are coming out at home.
Does your 6 year old 'respect' her. By respect I mean does she respect her personal space, her items ect or does she feel threatened by her?

Hatzlacha with it!!
And you know what they say... They will be besties at the end of the day!! (Sort of happened to me... We are not close close but for sure get on much better.)

amother

Thu, Nov 09 2023, 9:48 am

amother Charcoal wrote:

Yes they both get attention. The 11 year old has many privileges, she's the oldest and I really treat her often. I know it's hard to have younger siblings with special needs. But instead of being compassionate she is cruel. She's always yelling at her, calling her weird, telling her not to talk to people. I honestly think it's about being embarrassed by her quirky sister. I'm sad that instead of standing up for her, she sides with the kids who are not nice to her sister.

Yes she does well in school has friends has hobbies.
The 6 year old almost never touched her stuff but she may ask her a lot of questions or try to engage in conversation.

The 6 year old is very challenging in terms of school work and nighttime and morning routine. This is we're there is an uneven balance of attention. The 11 year old can dress herself and can take out her homework herself. The 6 year old needs my help every single step of the way.

amother

Apricot

Thu, Nov 09 2023, 11:09 am

I was the younger sister. I am not ASD or ADHD. But I was the younger sister who idolized her big sister and wanted to follow her around. My big sister didn't appreciate it and it was all out war. I lived in fear of her (never knowing when she'd explode at me) basically from the age of 7 until she got married when I was 17. Some points she was physical, but mostly verbal. She ruined my self esteem and self worth. It took years (after I was married) before I could take a compliment, because how could a dumb, nothing, nobody be worth anything.

I almost ran away from home multiple times because of her. But each time I chickened out as I had nowhere to go and really loved my family.

Now she's married over 20 years and in the past decade or so, dealing with her own tzar gidul banim, approached my parents and asked for mechila. She admitted being a difficult daughter. She tried to rationalize her behavior toward me, but really couldn't come with valid reasons.

I don't have a solution for you. I wish I did. I know my parents were clueless what to do and tried everything they could. (She refused therapy so that option was out.)

BatyaEsther

Thu, Nov 09 2023, 11:17 am

I would tell the 11-year-old, that she’s embarrassing herself. It reflects very poorly on her. If she is mean to her younger sister on the bus, it makes it look like she is a bully, and that she has bad middot and comes from a bad family. That nobody is going to want to be her friend. Remind her that people want to be friends with people who raise others up, not push them down. That you empathize and know that her sister can be annoying and you are doing what you can to support her, but that she should not embarrass herself in the outside world. If she’s nice to DD6 outside, she’s more likely to be nice to her at home, And also if it’s at home at least you can hopefully control it a little bit better there. Also, ask her what is she getting from bullying her sister. Her little sister is much weaker than she is, not as capable, popular….and not a threat to her. She has the advantage, she’s bigger, stronger, more popular and everything else. Why in the world, would she pick on her. Let her answer you. See what she says.

(If she says she is trying to mechanechher, ask her how that is working and why does she think)

ShishKabob

Thu, Nov 09 2023, 11:25 am

Hugs op, it's really not simple.

Your older dd cannot bully her younger sister. She can make believe that she's not her sister, but to actively destroy her younger sister is simply off the charts.

I think you can validate her, understand her for being embarrassed but as far as being quiet and letting her bully her younger sister is a huge no no.

Tell her she can make believe that her sister is really the principals daughter or her friends sister, whatever will help her be compassionate to her sister and not bully her. I think you should tell it to her face in a kind way.

Maybe you can speak with the teacher or principal to implement a program in school to teach sensitivity to people that are different than you and to be kind to your siblings and family. ( charity begins at home, this is part of it)

Of course it reflects more on her how she treats her sister, more than the sister herself.

Having anxiety and being triggered does not absolve your responsibility from being a mentch.

Hashem put her together with her sister in the same family for a reason. They both have space to be in the family and to feel safe there.

amother

Gardenia

Thu, Nov 09 2023, 11:30 am

amother Apricot wrote:

I sooo relate to this. My older sister called me stupid, ugly, she made fun of me in front of my friends and her friends. It really messes with me still 15 years later.
I wish my parents separated us as much as possible, I wished I could switch schools so I don't have to see her during the day. They did put us in separate bedrooms on opposite sides of the house. There wasn't much they could've done- they mostly were on her side- and she's still a bully until today. Now she's very jealous of my life and I don't speak to her often but when I do she tries to make me feel bad about myself as a mother and wife. It really sucks. Like why can't she just be nice to me?
I do have other sisters who I'm rlly close to bH.
I learned boundries with her and built up my own confidence with help from my therapist.

ShishKabob

Thu, Nov 09 2023, 11:31 am

amother Gardenia wrote:

Hugs... She probably is really jealous of you not that it helps. Have pity on her, it must be difficult to live with herself. Hugs again.

amother

Thu, Nov 09 2023, 11:49 am

ShishKabob wrote:

Where in my post did I say that I'm ignoring it? I've been dealing with it for years. All these reasons aren't helping change her behavior. I'm here asking what's next.

ShishKabob

Thu, Nov 09 2023, 11:54 am

amother OP wrote:

Where in my post did I say that I'm ignoring it? I've been dealing with it for years. All these reasons aren't helping change her behavior. I'm here asking what's next.

Sorry, didn't mean to insinuate that you ignore it, I wasn't sure that you speak actively against her behaviour, again, sorry if I misread this.

I think you should take one perek a day of tehillim per child and dedicate it to them. While you are saying it have in mind that this child should improve their ways. This really tangibly has helped a lot of people. Warmest hugs.

amother

Valerian

Thu, Nov 09 2023, 12:00 pm

amother Gardenia wrote:

This.
I am the older sister. I didn't call her stupid and I wasn't mean, but it was so, so hard to have my younger sister in my face all the time (and people expected me to be responsible for her, including my parents). I wish we didn't have to share a bedroom, I wish we went to different schools, I wish they didn't parentify me in this area and so many others. I was a kid! Not an adult. I wasn't ready to always have to cope with having a sister who was SN but not enough, so she was in my school, tagged along with my friends, came to me on the bus, and I needed space to socialize without her as my shadow.

We actually get along much better today - with our own homes, our own marriages, our own kids - than we ever did pushed together in one house and school.

amother

Valerian

Thu, Nov 09 2023, 12:02 pm

amother OP wrote:

Sorry, it's unreasonable to expect compassion from an 11 year old who needs space and isn't getting it.

And yes, I was embarrassed of my younger sister. I was a kid. People were always asking me questions about her, or saying things about her, I suffered socially because of it and I was a kid. No one saw my side of it.

Your expectations are not reasonable of an 11 year old, and that makes it worse.

amother

Valerian

Thu, Nov 09 2023, 12:06 pm

amother OP wrote:

.

Unfortunately not an option. The younger one needs the services the school provides and the older one doesn't want to change.

maybe try to separate them when the natural opportunity arises.
Ask someone in chinuch if you should separate them sooner. Discuss all the options and pros and cons.

My best two school years were 9th and 10th grade - separate high school from elementary school. After that, of course, my sister showed up and took over. I begged my parents to send her to a different high school.

amother

Thu, Nov 09 2023, 12:10 pm

amother Valerian wrote:

What exactly should I be doing?

I have talked to older sister about how hard it is etc. I've done the empathy thing many times. She's been to therapy many times to help her process and to get tools for managing her emotions around all this.

My expectation is for my 11 year old is to not bully her sister. That's all.

The 11 year old has friends and is quite popular.