Double take - your thoughts

amother

Anemone

Mon, Nov 13 2023, 1:49 pm

amother Hunter wrote:

A truly gifted student needs a separate curriculum, not just a few extra worksheets. It's unfair to expect the teacher to put it together. The school can purchase one.

It's not fair on a child to have them sit in regular classroom all day doing their own separate curriculum. It's a social and emotional disaster and leads to them being totally switched off. The teachers can and should interject questions and ideas in their regular lessons which are addressed to the gifted students. It is really, really possible. The problem is that our teachers are not trained in how to do it.

Teachers who have taken my classes are managing to do this without adding a lot to their preparation load.

The idea behind it is that it's not what they are teaching that is boring, it's the way it's being taught. If you teach 5+5=10 and then give 5 examples, that's boring. If you give 5 examples and ask, can you work out the rule, then it's interesting. It's about teaching method not content.

If people want to understand this better, you can get in touch with me through my website giftedspace.com.

mha3484

Mon, Nov 13 2023, 1:55 pm

I think these ideas work for girls and may have worked when my son was younger but now in middle school, his Rebbe is really focused on preparing them for the type of learning they will do in Mesivta. He does chavrusa learning 3x a week in the school bais medrash etc. He teaches them how to learn and he said the boys from his class really come into Mesivta well prepared. But my son knows this stuff. And he doesn't want to be some ones tutor so that's where a lot of it comes from. There is no really good alternative because he cant really skip half the day.

Last edited by mha3484 on Mon, Nov 13 2023, 1:58 pm; edited 1 time in total

watergirl

Mon, Nov 13 2023, 1:57 pm

amother Hunter wrote:

A truly gifted student needs a separate curriculum, not just a few extra worksheets. It's unfair to expect the teacher to put it together. The school can purchase one.

A *truly* gifted student needs to be in the right environment - a school for gifted and Talented students.

amother

Anemone

Mon, Nov 13 2023, 2:03 pm

mha3484 wrote:

My son is currently learning with a boy from an older class during this time. They have marei mekomos which their rebbe took from a colleague in a yeshiva for older boys and they work through them together. Once a week the menahel goes through what they've learned and challenges them for the next week.

A different school I know is next door to a kollel and the advanced boys go to the kollel for those hours and learn with the avreichim.

There are solutions if you are creative enough.

mha3484

Mon, Nov 13 2023, 2:12 pm

There are solutions but they are not easy. And not always practical. It is a complex balance of making sure his intellectual needs and social needs are met because kids like him often have a wide gap between the two. I may as well home school if I wanted him to learn most of the morning in my local kollel. I want him in school so he can have good social skills and get along with people. I'm just saying these are really complex issues and it goes much deeper then just a different curriculum.

I think what also makes it harder is that there is not a lot of parent support for how to navigate this. I know very few parents who have a kid like mine and I have tried to talk about some of his issues with friends before and got some not nice comments back so now I really don't talk to anyone but then you become the parents in the double take who really want to help their son but don't know the best way to go about it.

amother

Anemone

Mon, Nov 13 2023, 2:18 pm

mha3484 wrote:

That is a billion percent accurate. Parenting a gifted child is the most lonely place to be. People think you are making a big deal about nothing at best or are humble-bragging at worst.
It's very, very tough.

watergirl

Mon, Nov 13 2023, 2:19 pm

mha3484 wrote:

The solution is to raise a stink and awareness (and get an IEP) so people know you have legal rights if you have this level IQ. Just like it's not easy to fight for your special needs child at one end of the special ed spectrum, it's beyond time for people (parents included) to treat G&T as the special need it is.

Easy? No. Comfortable? No. But would anyone suggest homeschooling their kids with special needs or keeping them in first grade? Never.

amother

Burgundy

Mon, Nov 13 2023, 2:49 pm

I can't find the article on the website. If someone can link it I would appreciate it.
I am struggling with this.
One child is bored out of his mind. He starts fidgeting and misbehaving when he isn't engaged. But school is so boring, especially English subjects. And he is in a school that is touted as academic. But for years he had teachers who didn't believe he could read. Until he told them he finished the entire Lord of the Ring series and understood it by 8.5. He asked my husband questions and clearly understood what went on. He hates worksheets because he is bored by the bottoms half the sheet.
They did standardized testing and FINALLY a teacher said he would get a reading list for the grades 3-4 years above him. Because after the Hobbit, Hardy Boys is just boring. I don't blame my son.

He can't move up as he is missing skills. But he can't learn the skills because the rest of the class isn't there yet. So skipping in math won't help because he doesn't know adding fractions- but at the same time he won't learn it in school until later in the year because kids struggle.

Give him harder work- not just more work!

amother

NeonPink

Mon, Nov 13 2023, 3:43 pm

hm...
I wonder why that is. I feel like so many frum kids are brighter then typical. possibly less then learning disabled but definitely a significant amount. it isn't rare for me to hear from someone that their kid is bored and the teachers don't know what to do with him/her
I have a kid who skipped and STILL scores significantly above average on standardized tests- possibly in the the 95% so skipping doesn't do it unless you want to skip a bunch of grades and that is almost automatically social suicide...

keym

Mon, Nov 13 2023, 3:46 pm

amother NeonPink wrote:

Because the expectation is that if you're lucky enough to understand the material, just sit quietly while the teacher teaches it yet again.
And if you complain that you're bored, you'll get busy work.
And don't complain. At least you do well in school.

mha3484

Mon, Nov 13 2023, 3:48 pm

keym wrote:

This. 100000% and its why its so socially isolating. I have gotten comments from no longer friends basically telling me to be grateful. So I dont talk to people about it and then feel like I am alone.

amother

NeonPink

Mon, Nov 13 2023, 4:21 pm

keym wrote:

but that's ridiculous, why should parents be paying for their kids to sit there and be blobs or be a tutor for the other kids. (happened to my kids, had to tell one dd to stop helping the other kids so that she'd be more likely to be taken out of a class that wasn't working for her....) I'm paying for my kid to be educated, the school puts extra effort in to the slower kids...

amother

Nasturtium

Mon, Nov 13 2023, 5:15 pm

amother NeonPink wrote:

See, and this is not my mentality at all.

The reason I send this type of child to school is to learn hashkafos, to gain social skills, to make friends, to gain role models in the form of wonderful teachers. A side benefit is maybe they'll learn something along the way. Let's be honest, they'd learn even if you locked them in an empty room with a stack of books.

But while all of this is going on, they need to feel happy and confident and connected. Which won't happen if they are bored.

So if my child is happy teaching other kids in the class, that means she's gaining social skills, learning teaching skills, practicing empathy and patience...all of which are included in my goals for her. I can get out books from the library for her to devour at home, and she'll learn plenty. I can also raise discussions with her that stretch her brain in a way that a teacher can't do in a 1-on-20 classroom. But I can't give her social skills or practice in middos in the same way a school can.

That mentality has helped me meet teachers halfway. The teacher doesn't need to pour knowledge into my child during school hours. The teacher just needs to keep my child feeling happy and productive. That's a more manageable goal for a hardworking teacher, and we can (usually) work together to make it happen.

keym

Mon, Nov 13 2023, 5:20 pm

amother Nasturtium wrote:

Must be child's personality.
Because my son's starting in 6th grade absolutely did not feel good being made to be chavrusas with weaker students for much of the day.
They wanted to be taught.

amother

Nasturtium

Mon, Nov 13 2023, 5:27 pm

keym wrote:

Must be child's personality.
Because my son's starting in 6th grade absolutely did not feel good being made to be chavrusas with weaker students for much of the day.
They wanted to be taught.

Oh, 100%! If they're not happy, then I'd be pushing for change. But if they're happy--and some gifted kids are--in this position, I definitely wouldn't try to convince them not to be.

Same thing if there's a kid who finishes work early and wants to do sudoku puzzles or word searches or whatever instead of more work. That's great! If they feel unproductive and bored doing that, then it's not a solution.

All I'm saying is that the goal should be related to the child's self-confidence, middos, and social comfort. Not related to how much they're learning academically. There's a lot more to learn in life than academics, first of all. And second of all, as I said, these kids will learn anyway.

amother

Burgundy

Mon, Nov 13 2023, 6:58 pm

Sorry- if it was the opposite, a kid with special needs or learning disabilities, the school will do what it can to make it work. I know this from my own kids in school. Kids with disabilities are given help. The teacher will make an individual handout or test for that ONE student. But for my gifted kid? Nope.
So now he sits bored at school. And is restless. And then punished for playing with toys in his desk. How would you feel sitting in a 1st grade class as an adult and made to sit there and listen to the same boring talk about 1 plus 1? And sight words? And having to do that for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week.
My kid was reading chapter books in 1st grade!! Figured out multiplication on his own.
For years I was told my kid "isn't smarter". But then I see his lexile score. And the books he is reading. And the questions he asks. Finally the teacher says "yeah, he needs to be challenged" but won't help us!

I get the mindset- if we don't help the kid with disabilities they will get turned off from yiddishkeit, go OTD, feel like a failure... but don't they realize the same is happening to my son? He is resenting his teachers. He is getting into (minor) trouble. Doesn't feel like a success. Doesn't enjoy class. How is that good for his self esteem and future success?

amother

Mintcream

Mon, Nov 13 2023, 7:27 pm

amother Nemesia wrote:

I had a very strong reaction. The mother was right. She wasn't asking for a new curriculum. All she wanted was worksheets. And no, he didn't have to grade them.
And of course skipping a grade would have been inappropriate.

If you or your kids were gifted I don't think you would agree that extra ungraded worksheets would make a positive difference.