Leaving an aging parent for Aliyah

amother

Charcoal

Wed, Nov 22 2023, 10:23 am

ShishKabob wrote:

This doesn't mean you are free of kibbud av vem. This must be discussed with a competent Rav.

What does this mean? Children are never allowed to move away from their parents?

ShishKabob

Wed, Nov 22 2023, 10:25 am

amother Charcoal wrote:

What does this mean? Children are never allowed to move away from their parents?

It means, that it's something that needs to be discussed when parents are elderly or there are other circumstances. It doesn't mean you cant move away, it means it needs to at least be discussed from different angles etc..

ShishKabob

Wed, Nov 22 2023, 10:27 am

amother Tulip wrote:

I can't imagine leaving my parents when they will need me most. I grew up watching my parents care for my grandparents till the very end, don't our parents deserve the same?

Bingo! This means you were raised really well. Not by being given speeches, but by osmosis, observing, and absorbing!

amother

Tulip

Wed, Nov 22 2023, 10:27 am

amother Charcoal wrote:

What does this mean? Children are never allowed to move away from their parents?

Moving to the other end of the world is not moving several hours away. Look at during covid & now during the war when travel was nearly impossible.

amother

Charcoal

Wed, Nov 22 2023, 10:29 am

ShishKabob wrote:

No parent has the right to mix in with where their adult child lives. What you are suggesting sounds unhealthy.

ShishKabob

Wed, Nov 22 2023, 10:34 am

amother Charcoal wrote:

No parent has the right to mix in with where their adult child lives. What you are suggesting sounds unhealthy.

It's not the parent mixing in maam, it's the child that has feelings for his parents that brings this up to their Rav, and weighs all the options.
It's the child that acknowledges their parents role in raising them, nurturing them, providing them life etc. It's the child that knows that there comes a time when roles are reversed and it comes a time when they can gather all the Olam Habboh that they can. And they do it gladly, respectfully and with deep love.
It's a question that should be asked by aylor. That's all.
(many times there are circumstances where the children need to move)
It's not a black and white thing.

amother

Charcoal

Wed, Nov 22 2023, 10:42 am

ShishKabob wrote:

Yes, and now their obligation is to their own children not their parents. Would you say the same thing if someone got a fabulous job offer in another country?

mha3484

Wed, Nov 22 2023, 10:44 am

I am my parents only child in our city. My siblings live a plane ride away. I think whether someone should move or not is very complex. My parents are late 60s early 70s. For me I like where I live and I would not leave my father but that's my personal situation. But two examples:

A) My mother lives by herself but has a fantastic support system with friends, siblings, coworkers she has a really full life. She had her knee replaced recently and my aunts helped her, my sister came for a week my brother came for a week she had lots of friends visiting etc. She had a second emergency surgery and is going to a rehab for a few weeks but she is well supported so even if none of us lived here I think she would be okay.

B) My father is the opposite has a very limited support system and if chas v shalom something happened to him, he really would need a lot more help from his children. I live 10 minutes away from him and when he had a bad injury a bunch of years ago I was the one who drove him to the ER. Its me or bust.

There are so many factors that you need to talk out before you make a decision. If your parents are more like A then its likely a situation you can work out reasonably if its more B I would ask a sha'aila.

amother

Nasturtium

Wed, Nov 22 2023, 10:54 am

We had this argument but in the reverse. We were living in E”Y and deciding to stay “permanently “ in which case my inlaws wanted to make aliyah while they could or move back. We ended up moving back, didn’t want to take the achrayus of them moving just to be near us and to have no option of moving back then.

ShishKabob

Wed, Nov 22 2023, 10:58 am

amother Charcoal wrote:

Yes, and now their obligation is to their own children not their parents. Would you say the same thing if someone got a fabulous job offer in another country?

Of course, btw, it's not me that's saying this, sometimes it's the Torah saying this, you need to clarify all these things is all what I'm saying. Again, it's not a black and white thing.

amother

Tulip

Wed, Nov 22 2023, 11:12 am

amother Charcoal wrote:

Yes, and now their obligation is to their own children not their parents. Would you say the same thing if someone got a fabulous job offer in another country?

The reason for moving is irrelevant. What will you do when your parents need help. Move back? Bring them to you? Are other siblings nearby who are capable? Basically you need to do something other than hiring an aid or placing them in a nursing home.

For years I had an elderly neighbor with dementia who was only visited about once a week by her only child. There were aids there 24/7 but she was horribly cared for, probably abused. Don't do that to your parents.

ShishKabob

Wed, Nov 22 2023, 11:44 am

amother Tulip wrote:

The reason for moving is relevant afaik from a Torah perspective. Again, it's not all or nothing. That's why we have to ask. As an aside, sometimes it's worth it to go above the law not just follow the letter of the law. We want Hashem to do the same with us.

amother

Dill

Wed, Nov 22 2023, 11:53 am

ShishKabob wrote:

The thing is that going above the letter of the law here is two opposing Mitzvos.

Living in EY and caring for elderly parents.

There's no vacuum here and choosing to go lifnim meshuras hadin is guaranteeing that one is choosing against doing a different Mitzva.

Now could be it's still required, but I would not have the guts to tell OP that one mitzva takes priority over the other, and it makes me uncomfortable that posters are taking it upon themselves to do so.

amother

Ecru

Wed, Nov 22 2023, 11:55 am

amother Charcoal wrote:

So much guilt tripping on this thread, exactly what unhealthy parents do to their adult children.

?
I don't see any guilt tripping, only facts and angles of a complicated scenario.

amother

Red

Wed, Nov 22 2023, 12:07 pm

amother Charcoal wrote:

So much guilt tripping on this thread, exactly what unhealthy parents do to their adult children.

It’s not called guilt tripping. It’s called being a responsible adult.
We consider the consequences of our decisions and what effect they’ll have on us and on other people. We have to have priorities as far as whose needs and wants come first. When we’re dealing with parents aylor is a good start because there are actual Torah obligations towards them. The end result is the opposite of guilt. If we have the maturity to think about the decision before we make it, we end up with a clear conscience.

mha3484

Wed, Nov 22 2023, 12:15 pm

I don't see the guilt but I think our experiences definitely influence how we see a topic like this. I assume our age does to.

My father will be 70 next year. In his earlier 60s he was going up his stairs after a shower, fell down the stairs and broke his shoulder. BH he did not need surgery and even more so he didn't hit his head. But he called me at like 8am and was like I need the ER and you need to drive me come now. It was scary. We went to the urgent care when it was just becoming popular and then followed up with an orthopedist and it all worked out.

If I wasn't there he'd have called 911 and likely spent hours in a lousy ER with a big bill and who knows what else.

This experience for me was a turning point in how I see the role between me and him. It was the first in a bunch of mature conversations we had about aging. But before this incident I had a very different less mature to be honest, attitude.

Phoebe31

Wed, Nov 22 2023, 12:57 pm

I wonder if this is community dependent but many people I know move away from their parents and don't care for them in old age. In fact, more people I know don't live near their parents than do, it is very unusual where I am from to stay where you grew up. I don't think it's violating kibud av, you have to live where it works for your family.