My daughter cursed at me :(

amother

Mon, Nov 27 2023, 11:19 pm

WhatFor wrote:

OP, I'll take your word for it that she's not a typical teenager, even though being defiant, rude, cursing, are all par for the course. If that's true, and she's harder than a typical teenager, why are you making a huge deal about the fact that she muttered "wt*" under her breath? This should be the least of the difficult things, and you're blowing up relatively tiny things into huge power struggles. I agree with the person who said to read the explosive child, but I also think that you and DH would benefit from some professional counseling on how to deal with her. (From a licensed person with experience, not a community macher.)

I don't believe that I turned this into a power struggle and was actually proud of myself for staying calm and not reacting emotionally to her. She has been this way since she was a young child, extreme ODD, anxiety, the works. We have been to chinuch mentors, psychological evaluations, therapists, psychiatrist, social workers, music therapy...she is who she is and we love her. But it's rough. And when she responds with WT*...it's hard to swallow. Also for the record, she has never heard that word in our home so it was quite a shock to us. We are a typical yeshivish family...

amother

Mulberry

Mon, Nov 27 2023, 11:22 pm

amother OP wrote:

I appreciate this. Thank you. This is always our goal with her...it just becomes so hard when everything is directed at us 90% of the time. Hard to know where and when to draw the line...which is why we usually don't snd try to give her all the love and space she needs

How long has she been acting like this? Maybe try to do a group therapy session between you, DH and her. Clearly something is wrong and triggering all these issues for her. Are you open to hearing what they are, even if they involve you?

Also I think you can work on the love and space aspect. For example, shutting down a conversation with her because she’s getting worked up and disrespectful can feel very invalidating to her and make her feel like you don’t care to hear what she’s trying to tell you. I understand you don’t want to sit there and be insulted but maybe try to endure for the sake of making a breakthrough with her..

amother

Mon, Nov 27 2023, 11:23 pm

amother Mulberry wrote:

How do you know she isn’t opening up to her therapist? Maybe ask if she’s happy with it or if you who find a new one. My first 3 therapists were awful and I barely said a word, my 4th was amazing and I’ve been with her 12 years now. It’s like finding a shidduch.

Clearly this isn’t coming from nowhere. She is crying out for help. Teenagers dont just suddenly develop new behavior out of blue, there is something going on that is strongly effecting her. Just try to support her and encourage her to open up to you.

Please don’t focus on this. She didn’t really do anything wrong and punishing her or being offended isn’t going to help this situation whatsoever. She needs help with something and you are taking those signals and focusing on the negative. Do you think any teenager ever stopped cursing because their parents grounded them? Nope. If you are worried about the path she is headed down you are only encouraging her to go further down by punishing her right now..

I am in contact with her therapist and my daughter has told me as well. It is not new for her. she feels that she is above this and can fix it herself. This behavior is not new...she was always difficult...its just been going on for a longer period of time now. And her wt* is new

amother

Mulberry

Mon, Nov 27 2023, 11:28 pm

amother OP wrote:

It’s just a word and you don’t have to give it power. It’s very normal for teens to try it out and she isn’t directing it at you, it could be a lot worse. Regardless of background that word and many others are everywhere out in the world, and it’s very normal for it to be picked up even in a home that never says it. I don’t think this is worth the struggle, genuinely.

If you really think she’s doing it to bother you, don’t make it a big deal and she’ll stop doing it. If she doesn’t think it bothers you she’ll have no reason to try to get the reaction from you. By punishing her and making it clear that word is unacceptable, she just knows what buttons to push and will continue to say it. It gives the word power. Ignore the word, address the root.

amother

Mon, Nov 27 2023, 11:31 pm

amother Mulberry wrote:

She's been like this since about 1st grade, and the behavior challenges and attitude have grown with her. We have great conversations and there have definitely been times that she has told us about things that she feels triggered by us and we do our best to validate and take it seriously.

But when the conversations go round and round and she is not being logical at all, just emotional and then manipulating our words and getting herself worked up about what she decided we actually meant by the words we said...I don't see how it's helpful to continue. She is only getting more worked up and she has no accountability for her words and conduct because we are letting her say what she wants to say how she wants to say it, all in the name of love and validation. I honestly don't feel like we are doing her any favors like this. It's not like she makes one rude comment and we shut down the conversation...it's usually after several baseless accusations and extremely pointed barbs amd going around in circles that we start talking about stopping the convo

WhatFor

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 1:34 am

Ruchi wrote:

FTR. For those saying that it's normal for teenagers to experiment with words, please note that in certain
communities/kehillas, the F words are totally unacceptable. It is a real, serious red line to cross if you ever utter such a word.

Yes, I'm aware that these words are unacceptable in their entirety in these communities but frum teenagers are not biologically different from teenagers around the world. They're testing boundaries, saying things that are unacceptable, and have moments where they're behaving like toddlers. And frum teenagers who've never heard this word at home sometimes use these words as well.

If your kid is already harder than average and has multiple diagnoses, I wouldn't recommend making a big deal out of a word. More difficult than average teenagers are usually doing stuff way more challenging than using an offensive word. If a parent makes a word into a huge drama instead of just ignoring it like you would a toddler, they're going to be exhausted and get nowhere, especially when there are so many more challenges with such a child.

WhatFor

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 2:14 am

amother OP wrote:

I'm sure it's very challenging and I'm sorry if I was harsh in my post. Just a couple of things:

You're framing this as your daughter "cursed at you". The way that phrase is typically used, people expect that you mean that your daughter said something like "f-- you" or "you're a piece of s---". It doesn't mean that "wt*" is acceptable language in your home, but it's not the same thing as your child using that to degrade you. I don't mean this in a critical way, I just wanted to let you know that it ultimately makes it look like you're overreacting when you say she cursed "at" you instead of saying she just cursed.

Sort of like if someone's thread title is "child said I'm stupid" and then you open the thread and see an OP where she told child that she can't go out until her room is cleaned and the child said "that's stupid." It's just not the same thing.

My point being that I don't think it's helpful to you to phrase it that way because people end up focusing on what they perceive as an overreaction instead of an issue with your daughter cursing in your house.

With that said, I think you do believe your child cursed "at" you based on your subsequent post where you think that she's doing things specifically to hurt you/DH. I'm sure it seems like she would have no other reason to do what she does aside from actually hurting you, but I seriously doubt that's the core motive.

She might be lashing out because she biologically can't regulate herself and she's suffering from all these mental health issues, and is behaving in ways regardless of how it impacts you, as opposed to with the motive of hurting you.

Also, you say she's been to a bunch of psychologists, so I assume this has been ruled out, but ODD/anxiety/ dysregulation are very commonly linked to ADHD and/or ASD. If she was unintentionally good at "masking" then it could look like a series of symptoms without anyone making the connection to a neurodivergence. And if it were a neurodivergence, then no amount of treating the symptoms in isolation will be truly effective.

If you think there's any possibility that ADHD is applicable, I highly recommend watching this video series geared toward parents of such children. At the very least you can say, no way, that's not my kid. As someone with ADHD, I think it's among the best easy explainers out there, he's often called "the grandfather of ADHD". I'm also sharing this because I can tell you that puberty for someone who already has regulatory issues can be especially difficult and cause your DD to become even more explosive. Finally, in my personal experience, my ADHD meds treated my anxiety without me having to ultimately take anxiety meds. This might not be your daughter's circumstance, but I wanted to share just in case it is.

Caveat: it's possible that not everything applies to someone, but a lot of things do, and they still have ADHD. If he says 70 percent of people with ADHD have a certain challenge, it obviously doesn't mean that someone without that challenge doesn't have ADHD. In fact, it means that 30 percent of people with ADHD don't have that challenge. Another caveat is that he doesn't really go into "twice exceptional" kids, so even if your DD didn't struggle with grades, it doesn't mean that she doesn't have ADHD.

https://youtube.com/playlist?l.....9kNV_

amother

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 7:15 am

WhatFor wrote:

Thank you so much for this information. I have been thinking about possible ADHD for a few months now after a friend told me that her daughter was just diagnosed with it after many years because it did not display in the typical way. We actually had an appointment scheduled to speak with the psychiatrist about it but it got canceled and then pushed off unfortunately, but at this point, it's coming up in a few weeks and I will definitely bring this up. I really appreciate your explanations and advice here. It makes a lot of sense to me about the way I framed my post getting a certain type of reaction.

amother

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 7:17 am

amother Orchid wrote:

You mentioned she is struggling scholastically. Can you talk to the school about how to help her in that realm, adjusting the work? Her frustration is not because of you, but unfortunately you may bear the brunt of it.

We have been in discussion with them but my DD refuses to do anything different that anyone else. She seeks perfection and is getting burnt out from trying so hard when she clearly can not meet some of the expectations. I think she's going to just end up learning the hard way...she needs to get burnt out and realize on her own that she needs the help.

And also, becasue of her ODD tendencies, she is acting defiant and obnoxious in class and it is hard for the school to understand where it's coming from. The principal seemed very understanding of the.fact that she is struggling but also told us point blank that if she can't get her act together then she can't be in the classes that she's struggling in because the teacher literally can not teach andshes bringing the other girls down with her.

WhatFor

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 8:04 am

amother OP wrote:

If you suspect potential ADHD and have an upcoming appointment, then I definitely recommend watching that video series. It's called "Russel Barkley, 30 things every parent should know about ADHD" or something to that effect, if that link didn't work. He's a renowned psychiatrist in this field. You might find some things he describes that apply to DD that you never would've thought of bringing up to the psychiatrist. ADHD is so misunderstood and so stigmatized. You also might feel validated to hear how other parents of ADHD kids struggle.

Basically, ADHD is so poorly named because much more than about attention, it's about dysregulation. People with untreated ADHD can suffer a lot because dysregulation affects relationships and ability to achieve goals. It causes impulsivity in reaction and speaking, it can cause anger, and all other kinds of fun stuff. He talks a lot about ODD as well, which I have less experience with, but he mentioned something like ODD when it's not comorbid with something else generally passes after a couple of years. Obviously he's saying things as they apply to the general population and that doesn't mean that there are no exceptions. But it made me wonder if your DD's ODD is related to something else.

He also mentions that in his opinion children with untreated ADHD are approximately 1/3 developmentally behind their peers in terms of emotional regulation, impulsivity, executive functioning, etcetera. So if she did have ADHD (and obviously we don't know), then in those areas, according to him, she would be on a 10 year old level. So he describes for example, that if you wanted a ten-yr-old to succeed at a task, what setup would you have in place? For a 15 yr old with ADHD, you want to set up those same things (in addition to whatever therapy/medication). So if you wouldn't expect a 10 year old to do a chore without certain reminders, you shouldn't expect the 15 year old with ADHD to do those chores without those same reminders. To be clear, this isn't about intellectual capacity but about those skills affected by ADHD.

Of course if your daughter has ASD or another issue, it might be less helpful. But imo it's definitely worth ruling out.

amother

Peachpuff

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 8:20 am

I don’t have time to write everything I have on my mind now but I just want to say that I have a son who sounds so similar to your daughter.
It’s hard. Very hard. Regular parenting concepts do not apply when dealing with a child like that.
The main reason why she is acting out is because deep down she is hurting very much inside. She’s in pain.
There is a type of parenting that is the only thing that works with this type of situation called “crisis parenting “. Look into it.
You basically just show your support and care and look away from most other behaviors.
When their pain is so deep, nothing else will work.
You don’t want her hanging out on the street corners with boys and drugs. You want her home and safe.
You will have to look past a lot of negative behaviors for now until she is in a better place.
It’s very hard.
Try getting in touch with shimon Russel. Perhaps through email. You can listen to his lectures online for guidance.
Crisis parenting.
Good luck.
It’s a long road but there is hope if you don’t try to enforce regular parenting.