S/O babysitters | Imamother

amother

Oak

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 1:58 pm

amother Pansy wrote:

Are you asking me how I prove that widespread use of daycare/babysitters starting at a young age (the reality for many many frum families) results in harmful, society wide consequences? The studies speak for themselves. Here is just one such study conducted on the entirety of Quebec. Is that a big enough sample size for you?

https://ifstudies.org/blog/mea.....-care

And just because there may be other factors in our lives that are also harmful, doesn’t make this OK.

You are cherry picking from this article. The article clearly says that the kids who suffered were given the lowest level of daycare. And even then it says it needs to be studied further. "Clearly, more research is needed to understand the implications of extensive hours of day care in early life across development and into young adulthood. What we do know suggests that extensive time spent in non-maternal care in early life has effects that persist across the entire course of development". Most of our babysitters are loving ladies who care for the kids they are watching and treat them well. This is also referring to kids who were there for extensive hours...more than 30 hours per week. Majority of kids are not sent for more than 30 hours a week considering Fridays are usually a very short day.

Also did you see the article say how kids in a high level daycare were more successful? Or did you ignore that part.

"Findings from the NICHD-SECC found that higher quality child care was associated with a significant increase in cognitive-academic achievement scores at age 15 for children who experienced the highest levels of quality. And later research evaluating a subsample of these students found that the highest quality child care predicted higher grades and admission to more selective colleges after high school graduation. The effects were small but consistent across the outcomes from kindergarten through 12thgrade, confirming that the positive effects of high-quality child care can persist across development."

amother

Ballota

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 2:00 pm

amother Pansy wrote:

Sure. Babies have higher levels of cortisol from hearing other babies cry for two separate reasons- the noise level, and the nature of the crying itself. Note that the noise levels in daycare still have serious effects on babies and toddlers even when the noise is neutral, I.e. not crying noise.

Here are studies linking noise levels in daycares to serious negative effects for babies and toddlers-
https://www.sciencedirect.com/.....00037
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p.....8537/

Here are studies study discussing the “emotional contagion” effect in babies, which leads them to get stressed when they hear other babies who are stressed (similarly to how adults are wired to respond to a baby’s cries because it elicits a feeling of urgency and empathy in them)-
https://www.researchgate.net/p.....agion
https://www.sciencedirect.com/.....00305

There are many many more studies on this topic. I highly recommend reading this article which summarizes the science- the good the bad and the ugly - on the effects of daycare on babies and toddlers. This article provides links to every single study it cites, which makes it a very valuable resource-
https://criticalscience.medium.....2efb4

Thanks so much! This is so helpful and informative.

amother

Ballota

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 2:02 pm

paperflowers wrote:

No, the trauma is based off consistently not getting their needs met. Yes, if their needs aren't met they will experience more crying and distress. Of course, severity and frequency make a difference. Frequent severe neglect can be traumatic. We do need to respond to our kids' crying and emotions, because that teaches them that they are loved, can get their needs met, can communicate, and can experience big emotions and be okay, and this all starts at a very young age. But there is a lot of room for individual differences in a kid's temperament and parent's personality.

I don’t agree with this. It depends on how the baby perceives the neglect. If a sensitive baby has a mom who is chilled when it comes to listening to her babies cries, that baby will suffer.

amother

Oak

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 2:03 pm

amother Pansy wrote:

It’s actually not my opinion it’s a well researched fact.

Sure, some babies may be easier able to adapt to the babysitter environment. And others may have external protective factors (loving parents, stable environment) that allow them to later on overcome the harmful effects. But that doesn’t change the fact that as a whole, babysitter group environments do not adequately meet the emotional, physical, developmental, or intellectual needs of babies.

How is this not your opinion? Did you go to every frum lady who does babysitting to make sure of this?

amother

Ballota

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 2:04 pm

amother Oak wrote:

Most mothers are not suffering from a lack of education how to care for a baby. They have financial constraints that cause them to make the decisions they make. This mom clearly isn't bound by those financial constraints which can affect her decision making. Not everyone is so privileged. And majority of babies are not suffering from trauma from crying for a bit.

I am very bound by financial constraints. We make choices for our families and education and knowledge can really make an impact on our choices.
There is so much basic knowledge about child development abound and just some knowledge as to the importance of the formative years of 0-3 will make a huge impact on our communities as a whole.
There are so many kids suffering and a lot of the issues ( not all) stem from infancy.

amother

Ballota

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 2:05 pm

amother Mustard wrote:

I sure can do those things, except for cooking dinner, with the baby in my hands. Or while sitting on the floor with the baby on my lap. I do these things on a daily basis.

I bathe my kids while holding the baby, but now BH she loves the bath even when she's not sitting in it, so she stands holding onto the tub while I bathe them with 2 hands and it's much easier.

I cook easy meals, and I start early so I can break up the tasks to tend to the baby if she cries in the middle. And if it's just not working, the cooking waits until my older kids get home to help.

You sound like a great mom, Mustard.

amother

Ballota

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 2:07 pm

amother DarkGray wrote:

While there are definitely babysitting arrangements that are sub-par, this doesn't mean that babysitter environment in general is automatically harmful & traumatic for baby. Unfortunately, home environment & baby being home with mom, may sometimes be harmful & traumatic as well.
We can't make a general statement on either way.
Most of us do our very best that all are kids are cared for & have their needs met in the best way possible.

Unfortunately most babysitting situations are subpar.
Go observe a few situations for a few days.

amother

Pansy

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 2:10 pm

amother Oak wrote:

If I cherry picked it was not intentional. But I stand firm in saying that daycare for babies and young toddlers, as an overall rule, is harmful. Read through all the sources in this article and then tell me if you still disagree-
https://criticalscience.medium.....2efb4

Regardless, your point about most of our babysitters being “loving ladies” doesn’t negate the fact that it is not maternal care. And the vast majority have ratios that do not allow them to properly provide good care or create the proper environment for babies.

The authors saying “more research is needed” in no way weakens their findings. That is standard scientific paper language.

You are correct that being in daycare 30+ hours a week is more harmful than shorter hours, and many frum babies are at babysitters for less than 30 hours a week. That just means it’s not as bad.

And to your last point about higher quality childcare resulting in better academic outcomes, is that compared to babies and toddlers who were home with an attentive parents? Or only compared to babies and toddlers who were in lower quality childcare? Because if it’s the latter, it’s a moot point. And also, who says higher academic outcomes are a good thing at the expense of emotional and behavioral health?

Also, if you think the majority of frum babysitting set ups fall into a high quality level of care, you are very sadly mistaken.

amother

Ballota

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 2:14 pm

amother Mustard wrote:

Correct. But no matter what the household is like, that doesn't mean it's okay to let a baby cry in the crib while you spend half an hour frying chicken cutlets.

There was one time recently my 8 year old wasn't in the mood to help so I make the supper myself and the baby was crying so ds11 got annoyed. That was okay with me. An 11 year old is old enough to understand why I need his help, whereas a baby has no clue why you are not holding her. I do not enslave my children. I ask for help with the baby once a week, and it's an added plus that he usually loves doing it.

Even if I could fry the cutlets earlier, I wouldn't because my kids want them fresh out of the pan. It's in my kids' best interest to have them made while they are home, it's in the baby's best interest to be held whenever she cries, and it's okay for an 11 year old to be asked to help once a week, even the rare times he's not in the mood of holding her.

Mustard, you’re an inspiration for me. If a baby is happy on a baby mat that’s nice too but a baby that is held a lot by their mother in conjunction with a lot of tummy time, is a lucky baby.

The way you balance it is so nice to read and yes it’s fine for older kids to hold the baby for a bit. Holding a baby is usually a treat and my older kids love holding the baby. Don’t take the attacks seriously. Posters are feeling jealous and guilty that’s all.

amother

Pansy

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 2:28 pm

amother Oak wrote:

Really? They came to all our local babysitters to grade them on their level of care?

You decided that all our babysitters pr most give substandard level of care. Most moms check into their sitters and don't just leave them with people they don't feel will give their kids good care.

I have no idea where you live, but I’m curious about something. In your city’s frum community, what would you say is the average age that most babies are sent out to babysitters, and what would you say is the average teacher/baby ratio for that age? And does that average ratio change as the baby gets older? If so, to what?

Obviously your perception of the averages isn’t necessarily correct but I’m still curious.

And if you decline to be honest in your response that just makes our whole conversation here pointless.

amother

DarkGray

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 2:31 pm

amother Ballota wrote:

The way you balance it is so nice to read and yes it’s fine for older kids to hold the baby for a bit. Holding a baby is usually a treat and my older kids love holding the baby. Don’t take the attacks seriously. Posters are feeling jealous and guilty that’s all.

I think that this is the most disgusting and holier-than-thou comment on this thread. Don't you say that you're just "educating". You clearly feel that you're better than everyone else, and those that don't agree with you, must be jealous and feeling guilty.....
This isn't educating, this is horrible mom shaming at it's finest.

amother

Oak

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 2:33 pm

amother Pansy wrote:

I have never researched this. I have looked into the babysitters I send to and don't worry about what others are doing. However all the moms I know love and care about their babies so I would assume they are doing what's best for their babies.

I give you the award for being the best mom! Yay for you that you can keep your kids home with you, hold them all day, never let them cry, and never sleep train! The rest of us are probably terrible moms for needing to earn a living and sending our kids to babysitters at a young age, to babysitters that don't meet their needs, and have too large of a ratio. Iyh we should all be financially successful so that we can be just like you!! Thank you for all the awareness you have provided on this thread!

amother

Pansy

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 2:40 pm

amother Oak wrote:

If you really have no idea about everyone else, then you can at least answer for yourself. You just stated that you sent your babies ti babysitters. At what age and what were the ratios?

Also, I’m not sure why you’re taking this conversation so personally, you asked me if I personally researched every frum babysitter and implied that since I hadn’t, all the research done on topic can be easily dismissed. So what I assume you’re saying is that all that research only applies to those secular people, not us. And that’s what I’m asking you the above question.

In no way am I trying to personally attack you or anyone else or make any judgements about how good of a mother you are.

amother

Pansy

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 2:49 pm

amother Oak wrote:

Also, I disagree with your premise that since the moms you know love and care for their children, it means they place them in adequate, high quality childcare. Virtually all mothers who I know love and care deeply for their children, yet the majority of them place their babies in sub-par childcare environments, mostly due to ignorance or sometimes desperation.