S/O babysitters | Imamother

amother

Almond

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 4:23 pm

amother Ballota wrote:

Unfortunately most babysitting situations are subpar.
Go observe a few situations for a few days.

This is motzei shem ra on wonderful frum babysitters. I used to babysit. I'm going to say that babysitting 8 babies - or more- at a time is easier than you think. Once babies are past the very newborn stage (and even then...) they don't suddenly start shrieking out of nowhere. Babies start off moving around and looking restless way before they start crying, and they cry lightly way before they start screaming. There's plenty of time to get to every baby. And there are many ways to ensure that babies aren't crying. Babies who are well fed and rested are not crying. Babies also fall into a schedule by Morah that doesn't necessarily happen when they're an only baby, so it's easy to be prepared when they need help.

The ratios that everyone keeps talking about should not be set in stone, some babysitters can really babysit - well- a lot more. The number of babies she's watching is NOT an indication of how good a babysitter age is, even though mothers tend to think so, it's just not true.

Please don't assume that all frum babysitters are giving low quality or subpar care. That is just not true.

amother

Almond

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 4:41 pm

amother Emerald wrote:

I truly don't understand how you can feed, change, and hold 8 babies, plus eat and go to the bathroom yourself, without a few of them crying at any given time.

Because nobody I know watches eight newborns at a time. The two year old can wait till you feed the newborn.

Responsible babysitters either watch a very small group of newborns or they watch only two newborns plus older babies (over six months).

Babies over six months can be put on a schedule.

Anyway, not all frum babysitters have so many babies, many have smaller groups, but either way, there are many wonderful babysitters.

zaq

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 4:59 pm

Can we stop this utterly useless discussion that's been raging for decades? Whether day care in or outside the home is good, bad, or indifferent for babies, very few moms leave their babies in the care of others because they're frivolous, selfish creatures who just wanna have fun and not be bothered with the nitty-gritty of being parents, just as most SAHMs are not too darn lazy to work for a living, preferring to let government programs do it for them. MOST working moms are working to keep a roof over their head and food on the table, are already laboring under a mountain of wrenching guilt and sorrow every time they leave their child/ren, and don't need any sanctimonious preaching about how detrimental outsider-care is for children (which is any case debatable). They need SUPPORT, SYMPATHY and HELP. Just as SAHMs need support, sympathy and help. Can we please give every type of mother the honor she deserves and respect her choices, even if they are not the choices we would make?

amother

Taupe

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 5:15 pm

amother Hyssop wrote:

I'm one of those mother's. I raised six kids this way. No babysitting ever. Lots of holding, no pacifiers or bottles but lots of nursing for a long time, Co sleeping.
My oldest is an adult, happily married. The others are teens thru preschool age.
All are highly intelligent and they rarely get sick, strong immune systems
I'm not saying they're all perfect in every way, of course not, they sometimes fight (not too often) and aren't always obedient. But there's zero chutzpah here, none of my children ever bullied another child as far as I know, they are doing very well in school socially and academically, and have good middos and relationships. My teens didn't act out or go thru a rebellious stage.
I'm not this amazing mother otherwise so yes I do believe that my success in child rearing is due to the attentiveness of their first years. They got a solid foundation. I wish all mother's understood how fundamental the baby years are and how the extra efforts will pay off with an easier time raising them when they're older. It's a phenomenal investment.

And yes, I work full time. From home. And no it was not easy for me at all to parent this way.

I just don't understand how this works. How do you give your job the full attention it deserves, assuming you have responsibilities and are being paid to work full time while holding a baby all day on your lap? And no babysitting ever? Did you never have an appointment or a simcha you had to go to but couldn't take the kids along? I'm happy if you were able to swing it, but posts like these are unrealistic at best and just cause more guilt for moms out there trying their very best.

amother

Hyssop

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 5:42 pm

On the topic of babysitters and weddings. I think the pressure on young mothers to show up to every cousins wedding, sometimes with travel, has got to stop. In some families the mother or grandmother demands attendance, and these mothers are usually working and leaving their babies by day, and then hiring a sitter to attend simchos by night, in some large extended families there can be many simchos and I think it just has to become completely ok to decline to attend because I can't leave my kids by day and again by night. If the mother is a sahm she may enjoy going out at night and socializing and that's a different situation. Thoughts?

amother

Pansy

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 5:51 pm

amother Ballota wrote:

Pansy, your posts are so in-depth and informative and thank you for your insights. I disagree with you though about being so flippant about a baby crying 5 minutes here and there. There is the long term that we are discussing and hopefully with a secure attachment and the severity and frequency not being too intense it won’t leave long lasting harm.

Life happens to all of us and surely there will be scenarios where babies cry as mom needs the bathroom or something important.
But it shouldn’t be the way of life. Not for the long term but even more importantly for the short term.

Because for the present we have a baby in distress and the same way we should have compassion on older children we need to have compassion for a baby in distress. We shouldn’t be flippant about it and we should try to minimize it as much as possible.

Your example of leaving a baby to cry for 5 minutes to cry in the crib so you can talk to your 8 year old may be well intentioned but it’s wrong. Give your 8 year old a hug and a snack with the baby and find a few minutes a bit later to have your in depth conversation. It’s possible to do both, hold your baby and tend to them in general as soon as possible and be a hands on mother to your older children. It’s not easy but very doable.

Ballota, thank you for your thoughtful response. Let me clarify a few things. I am not at all flippant about leaving my babies to cry, at the times where it is unavoidable I do my best to make sure baby can at least see me and hear my voice, and I keep it as short as possible. The example I gave of putting a baby in a crib for 5 minutes so I can speak with an 8 year old who just got home after starting a new school is an actual scenario I’m currently dealing with. When I say my baby is crying in the crib (or the mat or wherever he is during those 5 minutes), I of course don’t mean hysterical shrieking. I mean the cries that communicate he’s upset that he’s not being held. In my situation I need to weigh the very real consequences of my 8 year old not feeling secure and welcomed upon his arrival at home, which is having long term effects, vs my baby’s short term 5 minute discomfort. I don’t agree, and I don’t believe the science agrees, that those 5 minutes will have any significant impact. Of course in general I do as much as I can without leaving baby to cry, and minimize it very much. I am lucky to be a SAHM and they get loads of attention and care BH.

By the way, learning to accept the fact that it’s ok for my baby to occasionally kvetch for a few minutes so I can tend a super important need that cannot be done while holding the baby, is a realization I only came to as I matured in age and motherhood experience. Sometimes a mother’s own insecurities and anxieties about her mothering abilities can be detrimental and cause her to neglect more important things in favor of assuaging her own anxiety or guilt. And I am not flippant of it at all, just like I wouldn’t be flippant about an older child’s distress. If you knew me IRL you would know I dislocated a hip in my 9th month running to get my toddler who started crying at night lol.

amother

Hyssop

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 5:52 pm

amother Taupe wrote:

I don't have a job, I run my own business. I often wake up at 4 to get a few hours in before kids are up.
Baby wasn't on my lap all day. Naps, playing nearby, etc.
My husband works from home as well so he pitched in a bit too. But I never had a nanny or cleaning lady help with childcare.
Honestly I rarely left the house those years. I skipped many simchos or took baby along ( I sure did leave the older kids at home with my husband and or teenagers) or just went for a few minutes. I did all groceries and shopping online. Most appointments would be OK to take a baby along. Like I said my kids have excellent health so not too many appointments bh.
I am not here to make anyone feel guilty. My point is that perhaps if more effort earlier means an easier time later, it's a very worthwhile tradeoff. If I did it six times and I was always a working mother as well, it's doable. Not easy, but choose your hard.

amother

Pansy

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 5:54 pm

amother Hyssop wrote:

Totally agree as do many other people. At this point a mother needs to be able to put her own foot down when it comes to deciding which simchos to attend. If she and her children continue to suffer because of “the pressure” to attend that’s honestly her own issue and she needs to work on being more assertive. You can’t wait for the mind of everyone in the world to change before you start making your own choices.

amother

Ballota

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 5:56 pm

amother Almond wrote:

This isn’t motzai Shem ra. I’m not referring to any specific babysitters jewish or not jewish.

As an aside having 8 babies is for sure a subpar situation. 8 babies to one Morah? My heart hurts.

amother

Ballota

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 6:00 pm

amother Taupe wrote:

Hyssop, this is my parenting style as well. Give a lot when they are little and babies and bh have a much easier time when they are older. Easy kids who are well adjusted bh. I co sleep, nurse for a long time (minimal pacifiers) and no babysitters. Raised a lot of kids like this bh. It’s not easy and it’s all consuming when they are little but so worthwhile.

amother

Ballota

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 6:01 pm

amother Hyssop wrote:

I so agree with this!

amother

Taupe

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 6:03 pm

amother Ballota wrote:

It sounds really nice, I just don't get how people do this realistically while working. Co-sleeping, nursing through the night and than waking up at 4 to work? Sounds amazing but not all of us are superwomen.

amother

Ballota

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 6:06 pm

amother Pansy wrote:

Thank you pansy. I really respect
you and your communications here on this thread. You have been so informative and helpful and having a true dialogue not being swayed by personal attacks.
Thanks for your response and clarification. It sounds like you put a lot of thought into it and the fact that baby isn’t shrieking and is within range to hear your voice definitely helps the situation. I personally wouldn’t do that as I feel that I can have a conversation holding the baby and it not impacting my 8 year old. We all have our differences at that is ok. You sound like a very in-tuned mother and I’m sure your baby gets the best care.

amother

Oak

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 6:07 pm

amother Pansy wrote:

Convenient that this is when you chose to stop replying. Personally attack me and then leave. When I never attacked anyone personally on here.

I'm sorry if you think I attacked you...I didn't. I was praising your ability to be such a great mom. You are blessed to be able to have the resources and strength to do so. Not an attack at all. I stopped replying because I don't go online when my kids are up...I had just come home from work and therefore like to be present with them as opposed to being on my phone.

I am going to sign off this thread because IMHO it's pointless. You do come across as judgmental whether you mean to or not. Your way is amazing but it doesn't work for everyone. And no mom should feel bad about having to return to work because she financially needs to. So I was responding to your posts thinking of how a working mom would feel reading them. Most moms who work suffer from mom guilt, and the last thing they need is to be made to feel bad about leaving their baby at their babysitter while they do the fiscally responsible thing for themselves and earn money. Most babies do not suffer from lifelong trauma from being at the babysitter and one shouldn't think they are traumatizing their kid because they need to work.

As another poster said, this argument just goes in circles. Let's try to support others parenting styles and be supportive of each other instead of putting others down. You do you.

amother

Whitesmoke

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 6:58 pm

amother Diamond wrote:

Birth is natural
Leaving with a babysitter is not.

Inadvertently, you've stumbled on a very important flaw in your thinking.

Your entire edifice of "mother's who send out cause trauma" is built on the idea that it "Isn't natural".
So trauma that is natural= is not as bad/not as long lasting as trauma that is not natural?

You aren't concerned about trauma, you're concerned about "not being natural". But you aren't making that argument. Your argument is that mothers who send to babysitters are neglecting their children, causing lifelong! damage (Because again, it's "UNNATURAL!"), while dismissing the arguments that your claims aren't true because all babies go through trauma. If you have a boy, his bris was traumatic. An amazing mitzva, our son's connection to Hashem, but still a trauma.

Why are you afraid of simply admitting to yourselves that what you like doing is being "natural", and that instead of accepting that others don't find it as important and they have that right, you attack them for causing their child permanent damage?

amother

Hyssop

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 7:02 pm

amother Taupe wrote:

Personally I find co sleeping To be so much easier then getting out of bed to fetch the baby and nurse. I didn't get up at 4 every single day, and I go to bed early. And yes I was tired often. I'm no superwoman. Suppers were whatever I could manage to throw together with baby in arm. I had a lot of cleaning help and the place was messy in between. I'm not claiming this life is utopia. I'm sure I had plenty of hard days. I'm far from superwoman but I had certain priorities in place and let many others fall by the wayside.

amother

Hyssop

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 7:13 pm

amother Whitesmoke wrote:

I disagree with the premise that birth is a trauma. Where are you taking this from? I can believe wholeheartedly that since Hashem and only He designed childbirth as the means for every soul to enter this world, there is no trauma. And if there is some discomfort or whatever, then it's only for the good. Same for bris Milah. I don't believe that just because something is painful, it's traumatic. What are your torah sources for this statement?

amother

Whitesmoke

Tue, Nov 28 2023, 7:19 pm

amother Hyssop wrote:

The poster there agreed that birth is a trauma, but claimed that it is somehow different because of it's "natural-ness"

And I don't think it's debatable that birth is traumatic. Follow the thread to the post I was quoting and read how traumatic the moment of birth is for the baby. But notice, I didn't say it wasbad for the baby, because as you described, a birth is beautiful and wondrous thing.

I find it interesting that some posters would argue that a baby crying for a few minutes is traumatic because he/she is at a babysitter, but birth, with the accompanying physical damage done to the baby isn't.

You should have the ability to separate the two, there is "Not wanting to cause any trauma whatsoever" which is entirely impossible, and then there's "wanting to be as natural as possible" which is what you seem to be advocating.

But the idea that Natural=good= necessarily not traumatizing is simply a fallacy