Pay according to Family Size?

peace2

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 10:14 am

amother Garnet wrote:

This is klal yisroel taking care of klal yisroel. What is more beautiful than that?!
I’m really perturbed at others responses on imamother. So sad to think like those responses.
And just saying, I’m 25 yes old, have a masters degree, have 2 kids and can’t have more kids.
I still think it’s beautiful. Mi kiamcha yisroel. I would be happy to see that those with large families are being taken care of.

It's not about "taking care of" larger families - we do that with tzedakah, tuition breaks, etc. Your salary is based on what you deserve. Maybe if OP came on here and said, people with bigger families get bigger bonuses come YT time, I would agree with you that there's a place for taking care of those with more need in a company, but to change a salary based on that is wrong.
Also, keep in mind that companies have a finite amount of money they can pay their employees so if raises and bonuses go first to those who have bigger families, the ones who are single or have none or fewer children won't get raises they deserve. How do you motivate your employees to put in 100% effort if they know they won't be rewarded for it?

watergirl

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 10:22 am

amother Garnet wrote:

There is a halacha that the law of the land is halacha. Workplace discrimination is illegal. It’s a halacha.

Take care of our own in other ways.

amother

Puce

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 10:40 am

amother Garnet wrote:

Just because someone has a larger family, doesn't mean that the one with the smaller family has fewer expenses. Maybe they're going through expensive fertility treatments to try and grow their family. Maybe they have a child with special needs that needs specialialized treatments or schooling. Maybe they're helping out their elderly parents. Maybe they're working more hours now to save for the future and not work when they have a larger family and their family demands increase. A person should be paid what their worth and the value they bring to the company. This is so wrong on many levels.

amother

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 10:54 am

amother Puce wrote:

I agree with you.
Some personal examples:

My husband and I do not get insurance through work so we pay around 2000 a month for this
We are saving to buy a home and interest rates are very high right now so my future mortgage can be double the mortgage of those who bought/refinanced at covid rates
We pay very high rates of car insurance (around 500/month for 1 car) because of an accident a few years ago

My job does pay higher than market value. So I am choosing to stay here for now. But I will bring this up in a sensitive way at my yearly meeting regarding salary (which is usually in April/May).
I also will have to reduce my hours next year by 3 hours a week because my son will be finishing school at 4 (this year he is at a babysitter til 5).

AllThings

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 11:01 am

Maybe the company is not paying based on family size. Maybe the employee is coming in and saying, I need x amount to make it worth my while to stay here, and they value the employees enough to want to keep them on. That might translate to the same thing (employees with larger family = higher salaries) but not exactly discrimination.

amother

Viola

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 11:16 am

Are they doing it on purpose? I find that generally when people get married/have kids they tend to ask for a raise while people who don't have these life events often won't go in randomly and ask for a raise. So it just ends up happening that they make more.
OP, have you tried asking for a raise recently and were turned down? Or have u just not tried asking and assumed they were gonna come offer a pay raise (they never do lol)

amother

Hunter

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 12:19 pm

My husband worked at a job where he was being paid too little.
When asking for a raise the response was "but your father helps you pay your expenses right?"
They didn't want to increase his pay, so used that as an excuse.

2 things were wrong:

1- my in-laws never supported us at all even though they are well off and everyone assumed they did
2 - a salary should not be based on need, rather on how much you value the work.

If a rich person takes a job and decides to buy a yacht with his earnings, it's his right. If an employee wants to save their money, it's their right too.
The employer doesn't get to decide if someone "needs" the money and therefore pay more.

Either the employee skill is valuable to you or not.
Nothing else should matter.

amother

Narcissus

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 12:21 pm

amother OP wrote:

I am in a salaried position in a (frum owned) business where my salary is calculated according to my “hourly” rate. I have recently learned that some of my coworkers are getting paid a lot more than me, like up to 40.00/ hour more. I have equal experience to them, but they have much larger families than I do. I am curious to hear how others feel about this. On one hand, if I were single or struggling with infertility, I think I would feel like this is really unfair. On the other hand, I went to graduate school at a younger age than these coworkers and therefore have a smaller family size than they do. I understand they need a lot more money than me to live, especially because they are making bar mitzvahs etc. My husband works for a frum business and they have a similar approach to salary. He heads a team with someone who is ten years older than him (though not much more experienced) and has a much larger family and he is getting paid accordingly. Does anyone else work for a company that does this? I can’t really approach my boss about this because we aren’t supposed to discuss salary, but I am curious to hear other’s opinions on this.

I want to add that I work a lot harder at this job than my coworkers because I have more time to devote to the job as well as continuing education. They are very open about the fact that I am more dedicated to the job than they are.

What field are you in to make this much? Off topic I know. My job maxes out at $45/hr

amother

Mocha

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 12:30 pm

amother Hunter wrote:

I work in a frum office, my mom has many frum employees. I have to say I never encountered 'pay for family size'.

Regarding the bolded.
I've heard of school admin saying that when trying to get a tuition reduction.
I do see where they are coming from, they chose to live a kollel life, wife is not working or is working very part time. FIL is supporting, but expenses keep rising. There is not enough money and the tuition committee doesn't want to take the loss.
But the yungerman says, hey my FIL is not paying my tuition (yea, but you have a free house).

amother

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 1:44 pm

amother Narcissus wrote:

What field are you in to make this much? Off topic I know. My job maxes out at $45/hr

I would rather not say but I have a graduate degree and I am located in NYC so salaries tend to be higher here, especially in frum companies (though less benefits if any).

amother

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 1:45 pm

amother Viola wrote:

Yes I asked for a raise for around 10.00/hour more than I am making now and was told no, it’s not in the budget. I asked a few times, explained my expenses.

amother

Hunter

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 1:50 pm

amother Mocha wrote:

SNIP

Regarding the bolded.
I've heard of school admin saying that when trying to get a tuition reduction.
I do see where they are coming from, they chose to live a kollel life, wife is not working or is working very part time. FIL is supporting, but expenses keep rising. There is not enough money and the tuition committee doesn't want to take the loss.
But the yungerman says, hey my FIL is not paying my tuition (yea, but you have a free house).

That kind of makes sense from a tuition committee giving you a break, not from an employer who is paying you your salary.

amother

Amaranthus

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 2:04 pm

My employer pays everyone the same but there is an annual automatic increase in salary, so there are people who are getting paid more depending on how many years they've been working. In addition, my employer is a mentch and if I go to him to discuss my salary and say "I'm really not making it this year bc of my kids tuition" for ex, he will.work with me to find a way to up my salary. I may have some more responsibilities, I may be asked to step in if someone is out, etc, but it's understandable if someones expenses are higher and they aren't making it with the current salary. The employer can choose to let them go to find another job or to.work woth them to accommodate. Obviously this assuming people are not taking advantage.

amother

Razzmatazz

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 2:11 pm

I agree with posters above. I do the payroll for a large company in Lakewood and it’s absolutely illegal and unethical to pay wages based on family size! It’s not a tzedaka organization. You’re getting paid for the labor! A difference in rates can only be based on the job duties, level of performance, amount of experience (ie job related) I’m honestly appalled that this goes on.

amother

Tealblue

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 2:20 pm

I used to work for the U.S. Department of Labor.

It is not illegal, albeit unfair, to base salaries on the number of people in one's family. It is illegal, according to the U.S. Dept of Labor, to have different salaries based on s-x (including pregnancy, gender identity, and s-xual orientation), race, religion, national origin, color, disability, certain age groups, or genetic information. Any other reason for wage discrimination, like the color eyes you have or the number of people in your family, is not illegal. It might be mean, it might be unfair, but it's not illegal under U.S. law.

That being said, somewhere there may be a local law stating wage discrimination based on family size is illegal. I am not familiar with any law to that effect, but that doesn't mean there isn't one in some location.

notshanarishona

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 6:57 pm

amother Garnet wrote:

No it’s pure discrimination and poking people’s nose where it doesn’t belong.
When I used to be a single teacher, I would get paid last when salaries were late. However I was nothing like the other single teachers staying at their parents home and having expenses covered, I had to pay rent, food , car, etc and eventually had to quit because I couldn’t rely on my salary .
Who says that someone with more kids has more expenses than I do? As an employer you have no idea, nor is it your business to ask your employees what they need their salary for whether it’s for medical needs, buying a house, or day to day living . Many people with larger families get food stamps, medicaid, tuition discounts, etc and then full tuition is expected from “rich” small families. It’s a broken system.

amother

Thu, Jan 04 2024, 7:45 pm

amother Saddlebrown wrote:

Are you sure that they're getting paid more based on family size and not because they were more insistent, pushy when they asked for a raise? Maybe you were too soft so your boss thinks he could take advantage of you?

I’m pretty good at advocating for myself but who knows, it could be they were more pushy or he knows I am by nature an eager to please type of person. The thing is, he recently hired someone who has the same position as I do and he called me to ask me how many kids she has (he asked me a few other questions too and kind of threw that in..). Obviously, it could be for various reasons but I am absolutely sure she and another coworker are getting paid 40.00 more and have one more year of experience than me.

As previously mentioned, my husband’s company takes this into account as well.